HDX900 --- Why is no one talking about it?

Barry_Green said:
People have to understand something else too about Red vs. HDX900, etc. The HDX would come with a massive support network. Hundreds of professional dealers and service centers, thousands of trained technicians. That kind of support network is vital for mass adoption by large businesses.

I don't believe Red is even looking at that. Red isn't even looking at having dealers. They are going to sell one-on-one, company-direct to individual owner-operators, aren't they? I don't know how networks would feel about the Red purchasing/service business model, and I don't know that Jim and crew are even concerned about that market as of yet. But I can certainly imagine that the backing of a Sony or Panasonic is a large factor in the mass-quantity-buyer decision-making process.
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Look at all the "cutting edge" cameras that came out in the still photography industry. I have many of those sitting on my shelf.
The Nishika 3D camera, it was cool but the process to get photos made was slow and expensive. The RED concept is great and I hope it does succeed. I think I heard a figure that 1000 deposits were put down, at $1000 a deposit that is - One Million? The NAB booth probably cost? $100,000?? One Million might cover marketing costs for one year? So the owner is a billionaire, who made his money making cool sunglasses? I know he has a crew of talented and smart people behind him who have staked entire careers behind this concept. Today I can go out with my Nikon and make Ultra HD timelapse's. I did see the Silicon Imaging WMV HD of the Flamingo.
Low noise for sure and I would like to know more info about the lenses used and the post-production process. How did they record that? Was the camera tethered to some computer rack? It will be interesting once RED gets going. My passion is about the image and as I see more and more footage I know one thing, it's the talent behind the camera that produces great footage, not the camera itself.
 
I saw footage from the HDX900 at NAB. Looked GREAT! Much better than that XDCAM stuff Sony's selling, at least from a filmmaker's standpoint. I don't know about you guys, but when I see 60i footage from the higher-up cameras like the HDX900 and XDCAM, I can't really tell the difference between them. But when it came to 24p, Panasonic definitely knows what they're doing. Sony's done much better with their XDCAM 24p stuff than they did with the HDV version of 24p.

But yeah, basic answer to this thread is that most were more concerned about RED and possibly a little bit about the surprise announcement from JVC for the HD200U and HD250U. So yeah, that's about it.
 
I agree, they must have shown it at NAB for tons of press coverage, but I can't find any info. I was so disappointed with the early looks at the image quality on the HVX200. The HDX900 seems like a totally pro way to go. The only question I have is that the CCD's seem to have one million pixels, and I think this is less than HD standards. Isn't 2K the magic resolution number here?

Besides that one question, I am holding off on buying an HD camcorder til the HDX900 specs are out.

I email Crittenden with questions, but I am sure she was maxed at NAB.

Does anybody know more???

Do we know what a complete camera with lens and all will cost???
 
It's a mistake to count out the HDX900 before it ever ships. I worked with an owner-op this weekend who's ready to buy 2. He told me if it also included P2 slots like an HVX he would have pre-ordered them immediately, and sold his BVW600s. The camera plugs into every existing production companies HD workflow seamlessly with both 1080i and 720p. 23.98 w/1080i means that the F900 has a real rival... WITHOUT CRT FLICKER! Price point compared to F900 is fantastic. Tape stock and decks are fraction of the price of HDCam. For the broadcast company/producer who's not ready to transition to P2, this is ideal. The HVX as B/Producers cam will get companies into tapeless gradually. The HDX900 fills a need immediately.

Panasonic is always competitive with price in professional broadcast. If Sony drops the price of HD XDCam, Panasonic will surely follow with what they feel are comparitive products.

I.
 
Think Guys!!!

Think Guys!!!

Why would Panny lower the price of their camera in response to a camera (RED) that doesn't even have a prototype yet???

At best, RED looks great on paper. But it will take at least 1.5 years for it to come on the market if you factor in development, prototype construction, testing, retesting, production, waiting list, support structure development, etc. And 1.5 years is fast if there are no setbacks. You'll probably see a working prototype at NAB2007.

Besides, how many of us here can drop around $20,000 on a camera? People are already complaining about spending $600 - 1200 on P2 cards after spending $6k on the HVX.

I think we should all come back to reality and talk about what's available now and what we can afford now. Let's talk about refining the settings for the HVX and improving workflow. Let's pressure Panny for an upgrade to get rid of the noise.

Nuf said!
 
richriehl said:
The HDX900 seems like a totally pro way to go. The only question I have is that the CCD's seem to have one million pixels, and I think this is less than HD standards. Isn't 2K the magic resolution number here?

Do we know what a complete camera with lens and all will cost???
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Rich,
The Varicam only has 1 million pixels. Isn't that an HD camera? The CCDs are not a pixel for pixel map to the recording, it is an analog device. Gains can be made in spatial offset. And while I know that peopl think that there is something wrong with that, people that really understand how cameras work think it is a brilliant solution for squeezing every last drop of performance out of a camera. 2 million pixel imagers are expensive and less low light sensitive.

And you can figure out for your self what the rest of the camera will cost, by visitng the nice folks at Canon or Fujinon. The camera body is $26,500, the VF will be in the $3,000 range, tripod plate $500 or so. Case ? Tripod?

Yes the HDX900 should indeed be one very nice camera and yes the HVX200 will be a nice compliment to it as well. Just like it is to the Varicam and the SDX900.

Best,

Jan
 
your pitching this one to the wrong crowd. first $5500.00 compared to $26,500.00 just for the body, that does not include the lens. a Good HD lens could cost you $13k to $17k, plus batts, heavy duty tripod, hd monitor, zoom control, filters, wide angle lens, etc. you will be $55k before its all said and done. my friend, this is a house payment, these are dvx users, small hand held portalble cam that has mostly all the same features, the 900 is a nice camera, its taking over the sdx-900 witch is a greate camera but its not HD. Lots of people ran out and got that one and by next year it will be a expensive paper weight. The HDX 900 does have a larger chip set but still not practical unless your a rental house like Wexler or Bexell.
 
The whole map in the video world is changing and quite quickly. It was just 10 years ago that you had few choices = top end beta-cam or bottom end Hi 8 and nothing in between. I expect Red to come out and pretty much on time. I also think the big companies will rise to the challenge and follow Panasonic's lead (as the Red and Silicon teams have been doing) by getting advice from the consumers on forums like this! This approach is what has brought on a good connection between knowledgeable people like Barry, Jarred, and Steven Mullen and many others to give advice and connect with the rest of us out here in video production land where ever we live and work.
The big boys are paying attention and people like Jim Jannard are more than welcome to bring their creations our way. I'm very excited about Red. It's going to kick some serious butt! I will do what I have to do to move my work along to be able to buy a Red camera. If Red turns out to be as good as it's promoted to be, it'll be around for a good while as a company.
My 2 cents worth.
 
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When I saw the HDX900 at NAB I was really excited. I was also surprised considering a few months before I was told by a Panasonic rep that they would not be producing any more tape based cameras. The HDX900 is a great camera for the owner/operator moving out of the high end betacam world (I have a Sony D600WS) into HD. I've had many calls this year for HD, mostly Varicam but also the Sony F900. This camera will cover both those realms at a very advantageous price point and I look forward to it's release with my eye on purchase. I just wish it did SD too! Then it would really be the missing link...one high end professional camera that does it all.

I did acquire an HVX 200 at NAB and am awaiting it's arrival. It will be a great tool to work with the new 900 (as well as with the Varicam and the F900). The HVX900 does not have overcrank and undercrank abilities like it's big brother Varicam but if you want those effects it can be done with the little 200. What a great team.

As to Red (which hijacked this thread and should have been a thread of its own), I checked out their booth, listened to their spiel and looked in their tent at the mockups. It'll be a cool product if it happens. But what they've done is some great marketing and nothing more. Kind of like Blair Witch.

One of the issues with the 3/4 HD cameras is using good HD glass (don't want to pick up artifacts using SD glass). That is really expensive, I'm partial to Fujinon zoom lenses (if not using primes) and the HD lenses are over 20 grand (I think the new 16X6.3 was listing at about 25K). Angenieux was offering some HD glass. Although I've never used their lenses I've seen them around for years. They had a somewhat comparable lens to the new Fujinon at $10500. That's a great price for HD glass. Are their lenses good?
 
AMEN on the Solid and Being Around as Tony404 says. I'm a stickler to such a detail, rather than "who knows" philosophy with regard to future being there.
 
Haakon said:
I think there's a pretty big difference between $17,500 and $26,500. That's not to say that I think $17,500 is cheap by any means - but at the same time I don't think it's fair to lump these two cameras together. They get even farther apart when you compare specs, and considering that the one which does twice as much costs a little more than half the price of the other......
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Please do keep in mind that with RED you only get a -- DREAM!! Admittedly they scored on the naming and the matching domain. But they have no working prototype, nobody who can build that full size CCD imager cheap enough and of course no footage to show for. I would bet the family silver on the delivery being far far away. Just look at the huge problems and delays we had with both the VIPER (Thomson/ GF) and GENESIS (Panavision) cameras.

Now for price -- the $17,500 is for BODY ONLY (granted it comes w. a 300mm lens -- what an odd choice for a starter lens -- but good to cover your NASCAR race). Once you add everything from a lens package (5 primes) plus storage (look for TB NOT GB Storage ) plus accessories you are somewhere around 50k (w. cheap lenses that is). All that for a camera that may look cool as a 3D model with "body only" showing but has a truly absurd form-factor that will look (and feel and weigh) even more awkward with a large lens and raid attached to it.
 
Thanks for the retardedly wrong facts Swiss :)

They have a sensor, and it works. They just announced that they have images coming off of it. It doesnt come with a 300mm lens.. thats just the first lens that came out of manufacturing. They are making a very capable zoom lens around the $5000k mark.

So please do some research before you spread a buncha falsehoods.. it just adds to the confusion.
 
While I don't disagree with your overall post SwissPAL, though some of your statements are false, there are the other accessories to consider that would make that workflow just for a select few. There's the RED FLASH and the Bluray disc adapter for storage and I believe the RED team said that there would be more lenses besides the initial RED Lense.

As you've said, this camera will be a really hefty investment in the end no matter what, but there will be alternatives to hopefully make the workflow more streamlined and portable all the while being, yet again hopefully, cheaper than 50k+.

I do like that one line you used "Please do keep in mind that with RED you only get a -- DREAM!!!", nothing more true could ever be said about the RED camera. Nobody said that by getting a RED camera that you'd be successful, it depends on the talent of the person using it. :)
 
Have YOU seen it (RED that is)
I didn't think so....
The RED team is good at hyping as we have all seen at NAB <sorry you fell for it bro>.
Loads of speculations result from RED's venturesome NAB push in forums such as yours. I have considerably more respect for companies who DELIVER a product that is working (http://www.dalsa.com/dc/origin/origin.asp) rather than hyping something that is far away from being implemented.

Furthermore, if you knew anything about sensor manufacturing you'd understand that a full-size chip will be exponentially more expensive to produce than a 2/3" chipset. You can only get a few sensors from each costly wafer and the reject ratio is considerably higher due to its large area.

Therefore, I am the devil's advocate until I actually see the sensor in action with images to proove it at the price point that makes sense for a $17k camera. Until then Jared, it's still all hot air and tons of speculations from both amateurs and pros. :thumbsup:
 
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SwissPal... you do whatever you need to do and say whatever you need to say. Please excuse us if we go ahead with the project whether you believe or not. BTW, bro, what is it you do?

My best. Jim
 
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SwissPAL said:
The RED team is good at hyping as we have all seen at NAB <sorry you fell for it bro>.
Loads of speculations result from RED's venturesome NAB push in forums such as yours. I have considerably more respect for companies who DELIVER a product that is working rather than hyping something that is far away from being implemented.
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I doubt the RED team paid 75,000$ to set up a booth at Nab, just ot push a product that doesn't exist....
 
SwissPAL said:
Thanks for that Jared. :cry:


Now for your claims:
Have YOU seen it (RED that is)
I didn't think so....
:thumbsup:
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yes i have. And which is why DVXUser.com continues to be 100% behind Red.
 
SwissPAL said:
Now for price -- the $17,500 is for BODY ONLY
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Indeed, and the $26,500 quoted for the competing camera (which is what this thread was about in the first place) is "BODY ONLY" too. You have to compare apples to apples if you're doing a fair comparison. You can always add accessories until the cows come home, but the point was that Red costs almost half of what the other camera does in its base configuration and does a whole lot more.

Furthermore, it's been pointed out several times that you will be able to get into Red with a lens and a recording system in the low 20K range. The constantly perpetuated myth that it will take $50,000 to get a Red One working is disingenuous nonsense. You could pour $50K into an HVX setup if you wanted to, but obviously it's not necessary.

It's okay to be skeptical of new technology and I think we're all very anxious to see what kind of images the new camera will be capable of. But in the meantime, let's keep our slander to a minimum, eh? Thanks.
 
SwissPAL said:
Furthermore, if you knew anything about sensor manufacturing you'd understand that a full-size chip will be exponentially more expensive to produce than a 2/3" chipset. You can only get a few sensors from each costly wafer and the reject ratio is considerably higher due to its large area.

Therefore, I am the devil's advocate until I actually see the sensor in action with images to proove it at the price point that makes sense for a $17k camera. Until then Jared, it's still all hot air and tons of speculations from both amateurs and pros.
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Dude, you're speculating as much as the people you are accusing. RED has clearly stated they are in development. The only factors to consider whether or not they will finish this product is financial backing and technical feasibility. Clearly they've got plenty of the former and as to the latter...well this isn't exactly rocket science (not to dig RED, but even Jim said that once).
 
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Haakon said:
Erm... Swiss, do you mind publicly stating that I haven't seen an image from Red yet either? :laugh:
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ha ha ha brilliant. man its a good day in Jarred Land.
 
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