preview monitor connection..

T

turbo2ltr

Active member
So, I couldn't figure out where to put this post. It's not a FCP question per se, but didn't fit into any other categories...

I just picked up a JVC 13" broadcast monitor off fleabay. How do you guys connect the monitor for FCP preview? Using the second VGA/DVI port into a computer monitor looks horrible. So right now I preview into a Sony consumer camcorder via firewire, which will convert to composite video and be sent to the monitor. It's not my ideal setup as I'd rather have something more at home on a rack.

Now I know they make units like the Canopus ADVC110, Sony media converter, and other similar units for this purpose. Is that what you guys are using? Are there other options?

Thanks!
-Mike
 
Thank you, I picked up a Blackmagic Decklink SP card.

As a side note, I highly recommend http://www.postop.com. Very good (fast) customer service, same day shipping (order before 2pm), and free ground shipping on orders over $500. I found them through froogle.com.
 
Soo, I think I just wasted my money.

I am using FCP HD with the above mentioned Decklink SP card. I am editing on a 24 fps timeline DVX footage shot in 24pa with the advanced pulldown removed.

I was using my camcorder (Sony TRV-11) to output SD video from firewire. It looked good, but I wanted a more perminent solution so thats why I asked the question above. I bought the card and output FCP video to the Decklink card and it looks like crap.

Ok, crap might be a strong word. It doesnt look bad, but it has to do with the pulldown. Obviously somewhere along the line the video has to be converted back to 30 fps before it gets to the monitor. I assume when I was using firewire, the pulldown was done in software. Now with the decklink card, it's done in the card itself. Problem is the software did a better job at it! The video from the Decklink exibits "jaggies" moreso than the video out of the camcorder.

Sooo, what are my options/what am I doing wrong? For nearly $600 I'd expect a little more out of this card. Is my only true option to get a progressive capable monitor? Hmm, I think not because the Decklink doesnt put out progressive video... <sigh>

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Mike
 
Well that monitor is SD so if you want true HD quality then you will need a HD monitor/TV to see it correctly. In addition you will also need to calibrate your existing JVC monitor correctly with smpte color bars to get a true output. Local tv repair shops will do it for around $30 bucks. So bottom line is that you will need a HD monitor to really take advantage of your decklink card. Otherwise just firewire as before into you JVC monitor and see it a SD. PS I use a Sony PVM-1220 monitor via my DAC100 converter box and firewire from my rig without any problems.
 
1- What format are you looking at?

2- What were you looking at before? Your camera's LCD?

3- What are the settings you have? Go to the "Final Cut Pro" menu, then to "Audio/Video Setup...", then check out what you have set for your project.

Funny, smithy, but rather a tad lame, eh? So you know my ISP's name and can show it publicly, and you know my browser and can publish that, too, so what? Does using a stock java script make you a big man? Does that give you some control that makes you feel better?
 
I thought it was cool.. danasoft makes it and as for it being seen publicly..only you can see your information since everyone's rigs and services are different.

www.danasoft.com
 
Good for you! You can download an Java script! What does that contribute to our discussion?

Cause I have nothing to hide.

http://www.wolfdigitalmedia.net/public/BigMan.jpg

This should be enough to make my point. You seem to not be focused on the issues.

Use what ever audio means you think works for you.

Dig through the classical mess, find what works, as opposed to what simply "is", and you'll make great films. I know that's a cheezy paraphrase, but it's true.

Good for you smithy! You found the oldest trick on the Internet! And your point is?
 
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Well, I'm not viewing any HD output so getting an HD monitor would be of little use.

As I said, I'm viewing 24pa video from the DVX. It was captured on a firestore and imported into FCP, and the advanced pulldown was removed. (editing on a 24 fps timeline)

My camcorder can act as a firewire bridge. So I was outputing the video from FC to firewire into the camcorder, and then S-vid out from the camcorder to the JVC monitor.

I'm not too worried about color at this point, and the monitor is nearly new so a calibration is moot as well. And I am familiar on how to do it.

As far as FCP A/V settings, I have tried most of the available options. Obviously any HD options do not apply. I tried all NTSC 30fps and 24fps settings with little change. I am using component video out of the card into the monitor.

Thanks.
 
I'm sorry you had to buy a $600 card that doesn't answer you needs. If your working with DVX100 it is SD and that you could just firewire out to the camera and SD via RCA it out to you monitor. Or you can get a convertor from Canopus or equivelent and out to your monitor. Anything else is a waste. I thought you were doing HD but since you are doing SD the that is the way to go. Return the Decklink unless you plan to buy a HD camera later on. I hope you can return the card for a refund or credit to get your money back since you got bad info. PS if you are connecting your JVC via the Svideo out of your video card it will always be 60i without the 24p pulldown since was made for 60i output only (ie like another monitor). That is why you should output it via a camcorder or breakout box like the canopus or datavideo DAC100. Hope this helps.


On another note...my Danasoft banner is my sig on all inputs BenB. If you don't like it because it is simple JAVA SCRIPT like you say...then take for what it is worth and no more. lol.
 
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smithy, I appreciate your help, but you need to actually read my posts before you spew answers that don't answer the question.

If your working with DVX100 it is SD and that you could just firewire out to the camera and SD via RCA it out to you monitor.
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Yea, it was established in the very first post that I knew this because I was already doing it.

Or you can get a convertor from Canopus or equivelent and out to your monitor.
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Again, something that was already established in my first post.

I thought you were doing HD...
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Again...I never mentioned HD anywhere in this thread so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Return the Decklink unless you plan to buy a HD camera later on.
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The Decklink SP card doesn't support HD output, only downconversion, so keeping it if I was going HD later on would be useless.

I hope you can return the card for a refund or credit to get your money back since you got bad info.
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I don't consider the card suggestion bad info. When you ask for an opinion, you can't blame anyone if it's not the "right" opinion.


if you are connecting your JVC via the Svideo out of your video card it will always be 60i without the 24p pulldown since was made for 60i output only (ie like another monitor).
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I said the Svideo is coming out of the camcorder, not the card.

That is why you should output it via a camcorder or breakout box like the canopus or datavideo DAC100.
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Well once it goes over firewire, the video is always going to be 60i no matter what you are feeding it into, so this statement is completle irrelavant..

Anyone else have some useful information? I know I'm not the first to set up a preview monitor and want the best picture possible...
 
If you are coming OUT of your NLE, you are getting 24p output. It isn't reconfigured to 60i in the manner you are thinking.
 
Hmm. Then can I ask you to explain it or point me to something that does so I can get my thinking straight?

AFAIK (which may or may not be correct), standard composite NTSC as well as DV over firewire is 60i. Theres no way around it, it's part of the standard. So if you are viewing 24p footage over either of these signals, somewhere it's converted to 60i. Please let me know where is my thinking not correct?
 
I got the lowdown from the good folks at BlackMagic. Good news, and bad news.

Good news is it was partially user error.

They explained that DV source is 6 lines shy of actual NTSC. Without "telling" FC/decklink that you are using DV footage, the ugly effect I was seeing was the card stretching 480 DV lines to 486 NTSC lines. It looked better on the camcorder I assume because the camcoder knows that firewire is carrying DV and it needs to pad the 6 lines in the NTSC output.

Apparently you have change your timeline settings to use the Blackmagic easy setup for 24fps NTSC which tells FCP or the Deckling card to pad the 6 lines in the output. This improved the quality of the video on the monitor greatly.

The downside is that EVERYTHING needs to be rendered just to view it because it no longer uses the QT codec which is what we captured in (on a firestore) since it's required to properly get back to real 24p.

So in essence, the card works, but not optimally for true 24p sourced from 24pa DV. I thought this card claimed to be able to render in realtime, but I guess I'm wrong. I think I may call them back to ask again if there's any way around the rendering problem (different settings). I tried a bunch and didn't get anywhere.

At this point I should have just gotten the canopus thing and saved myself $400.
-Mike
 
Unless you have a monitor that is pure 24p, it's all NTSC, even the monitors.

I think you're complicating the issue. If you ingest the 24pa into FCP with the pull down, you're editing 24p, period.

If you run it out to an NTSC monitor, you will be seeing "technically" a signal that is NTSC, and 24p. FCP does not reconvert it to 60i to send it back out, you are seeing 24p out. Even if it converts to 60i, which you final DVD will do anyway, you still see the original 24p footage and it's effect.

I've never known anyone to go through the hastle you're going through with trying to view pure 24 progressive frames per second on a monitor. It works out, trust me. I honestly think you're over complicating the issues.

Can someone else chime in here?
 
Sounds like a driver/codec issue. I would find it hard to believe that Decklink cards don't support 24p in Realtime in FCP, I mean there website says it does, and with all the people using them I don't see how they would stay competitive without having that feature.

There should be a way that you can use the standard FCP easy setups and use a 486 line timeline, except just have tiny black bars at the top and bottom for the extra 6 lines of res. Maybe try a normal setup and change the size to the D1 standard. FCP shouldn't stretch it out and your card will output the video correctly. The card should tehn handle the pulldown issues and your good to go, in theory.
 
Ben, I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make is. As you said, unless I have a monitor that supposrts 24p, its all NTSC, but then you say it's not converting it and I AM seeing 24p. You can't have both.

There are two issues here. The source, and the transport. You are oversimplifying it. NTSC is an interlaced standard of 60i so you cant view true 24p source over it, no matter what. Yes you can view 24p source, but it needs a 3:2 pulldown applied to get it to 30 fps so it's no longer true 24p. This is exactly the opposite reason why you can't store true 24p on a DV tape. Because DV is based around the NTSC strandard of 60i.

I know I'm editing 24p. Putting the p/i issue aside, I said if you output 24 fps to an NTSC monitor, the signal to the monitor HAS to be 60i (NTSC). The 24 frame stream somewhere along the line has to be "converted" to go over the 60i transport. Either a pulldown is used, or the 24 frame stream is simply resampled at 60i asyncronously (which I doubt as I think it would look like crap). You can't feed 24fps signal (i.e. 24 vertical sync pulses a second) into an NTSC monitor and expect it to lock to it because it violates the NTSC spec.


Infinite, I'm pretty sure it is a codec problem, but not one that can be solved. The problem is most people capture raw DV into FCP. I'm going to try it with some raw DV later to see if it makes a difference. All our clips are quicktime clips from the firestore (Originally 24pa clips [at 60i] with the advanced pulldown removed leaving true 24p QT clips). Capturing QT on the firestore is the only way to be able to properly remove the advance pulldown in FCP. Blackmagic doesnt really have easy setups for 24p QT native source. They are expecting raw DV footage. Therein lies the rendering problem. (I think) I'm going to call them later today.
 
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turbo2ltr said:
Capturing QT on the firestore is the only way to be able to properly remove the advance pulldown in FCP.
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I'm not sure I understand why you're having problem here, I, and many others, capture directly from the camera and/or deck and remove the advance pulldown with no problem. There is actually an easy setup in FCP that is specifically for this, so I'm not sure why you say FCP does not properly remove it. Maybe this is where you problem lies, use the remove advance pulldown easy setup and you should have no rendering problems.
 
Are you using a firestore?

Capturing in raw DV on the firestore does not maintain the flags that mark the "disposable" frames. If you import the raw DV files over from the FS (we don't capture, we drag and drop the files), and try to use FC to remove the advanced pulldown, it gives an error saying it doesnt find any clips with an advanced pulldown to remove. The only way it works is if you capture in QT on the firestore.
 
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