Film school is even worse than art school (Guardian story)

However, as an exercise it would be interesting to 'refilm' some of the now classics as student projects, or perhaps scenes from them.
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I disagree. The original work would be butchered. Most Hollywood remakes suck and are unnecesary, so why would student remakes be any better? It makes me think of that terrible commercial from the movie theaters where that guy impersonates Jerry Maguire and Scarface.
 
I would go to film school for the networking and the equipment on hand. You probably wont be able to get as good opportunities for equipment and networking otherwise...but heh, I'm just 16..what do i know
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
There is also a significant difference between 'music' played as a repertoire, and creating music. There are many professionals who have only played other people's works, and become famous for doing so. 'Creativity' there is determined in interpretation and presentation.

I don't know if the world could stand a yearly performance schedule of 100 'Star Wars Episode I', re-performances in film... but this does point to the difference between film making and music or play performance art... heck in the West we are still performing 2500 year old dramas and comedies... the sex slapstick satyricons are for the most part lost... but I digress...

However, as an exercise it would be interesting to 'refilm' some of the now classics as student projects, or perhaps scenes from them.

What would the 'fair use' principle hold for a student effort along such lines...
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Sure, sure. I know there is a difference between a performing musician and a composer. And the composer needs to spend more days in front of a book than the performing musician, that in contrast need to spend hours and hours a day with his instrument. In film there are more theory work and more practical work. You don't have to know anything of film theory to be a grip, or even a production assistant (But it heps!). You could learn all you need to know in the field. But you need to learn film theory to be a director, or filmmaker. Be it in school, in a video store - watching everything you can (like Tarantino), or even by working along talented directors, just like everybody did, before film school was invented.

I think Matthew B. Moore just put it more eloquently than I did, and I agree wholehartedly with his words.

Cheers!
 
If its a waste or not depends on the student,
Tuition at the big name schools tends to be far too high for the following reasons
a. you may very well end up working as a grip on someone else's film depending on assignment
b. the departments are so large that its easy to get lost in the shuffle
c. A bad film in 35mm is still a bad film...
d. its easier to be a big fish in a little pond...

As for self education
A. you can learn alot (but not everything) about the theories and history behind film, and even the business through reading.
B. You can volunteer on sets
(you should anyway regardless of going to school or not)
C. Less money is needed (but it tends to get side tracked)

What you can take from Film school that makes it worthwhile
a. contacts - those you bleed, laugh, and party with form a good basis for networking,
b. support, attending school screenings, festivals, and trade related conferences such as the local broadcasting association are all outlets to learn from
c. experience making deadlines, working with difficult people, stringing together a cohesive narrative with a shoestring budget, and other problems that would be costly as a mistake in a career setting

Is it useless?
No and a little bit of yes,
a degree without a demo reel or something to indicate talent is pretty much worthless. There are plenty of afi and nyu graduates not working in the Film industry.
Film School does afford a forum for correction and a burn the ships mentality...
(its a pretty limiting career field, its hard to get sidetracked in middle management)

its not enough on its own, but its not a waste per say..

Just my 2 cents or self justification
Juard
 
Well after following this forum, curiousity compells me to ask this question: What are the top 5 most prominent film schools in America?
 
Not sure of an order but the schools people usually refer to,
(no order)
AFI (if they invite you back)
NYU
USC
UCLA (?)
Colombia (?)

Those are the ones I usually hear people talk about, not always in a postive light.
 
film school wasn't that bad...

at least it taught me not to go to film school....



I met good people there.. and some real morons.


you can't teach filmmaking... you can teach craft, and technique. If making films is not what you want to do, then school or no school you won't be good at it.

peas.
 
Loki said:
film school wasn't that bad...

at least it taught me not to go to film school....



I met good people there.. and some real morons.


you can't teach filmmaking... you can teach craft, and technique. If making films is not what you want to do, then school or no school you won't be good at it.

peas.
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Loki,

You CAN teach filmmaking. It is a technical process with rules and fuctions. You can't teach creativity but you can inspire it and give it life.

There will be good people and morons every where. Try working on a film set, you'll meet your share.

Don't be such an ignorant fool. I'm sorry you didn't have a good run in film school. I would suspect that you didn't take it for all it was worth. Maybe your school sucked. If it was that bad, why didn't you go some where else for your education? It is yours after all.

Part of it rides on YOU. When you mix art with education, the student must be receptive to wisdom of the teacher, as well as being receptive to his/her drive or heart or what ever hold their creativity.
 
Matthew B. Moore said:
Loki,

You CAN teach filmmaking. It is a technical process with rules and fuctions. You can't teach creativity but you can inspire it and give it life.

There will be good people and morons every where. Try working on a film set, you'll meet your share.

Don't be such an ignorant fool. I'm sorry you didn't have a good run in film school. I would suspect that you didn't take it for all it was worth. Maybe your school sucked. If it was that bad, why didn't you go some where else for your education? It is yours after all.

Part of it rides on YOU. When you mix art with education, the student must be receptive to wisdom of the teacher, as well as being receptive to his/her drive or heart or what ever hold their creativity.
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Well said, Matthew.
 
Matthew B. Moore said:
Loki,

You CAN teach filmmaking. It is a technical process with rules and fuctions. You can't teach creativity but you can inspire it and give it life.

There will be good people and morons every where. Try working on a film set, you'll meet your share.

Don't be such an ignorant fool. I'm sorry you didn't have a good run in film school. I would suspect that you didn't take it for all it was worth. Maybe your school sucked. If it was that bad, why didn't you go some where else for your education? It is yours after all.

Part of it rides on YOU. When you mix art with education, the student must be receptive to wisdom of the teacher, as well as being receptive to his/her drive or heart or what ever hold their creativity.
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I am ignorant? good thing you've met me before and aren't basing that on my opinion of *one film school I attended.

you basically agreed with me... aside from calling me an ignorant fool. "Filmmaking" to me is not the same as "making a movie" filmmaking implies art, and creativity to me, things which you either have.. or don't..

And yes, the school I attended wasn't good. Of course you knew that though, also having gone there. (See I can also make witty baseless assumptions as well).

ignorance is bliss i guess...
 
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honestly,

Here is my opinion. If you are just greaduating high school. Go to college, weather it's for film, or communications (my track), you SHOULD go to college. ****, just go to have fun for a while, study abroad, milk your student loans, whatever. Just make sure to kiss some serious professor ass and be buddies with everyone in your program. Hell, go to a state school and use those loans to buy gear. Seriously though, if you're 18, it's going to be pretty tough to get work anyway, most PAs are 21-25 years old.

Now MFA in film, that's another matter entirely. I think about it often, but since I have steady work I never go through with it. I do take random classes here and there, really jsut because I think learning is fun and the classroom dynamic really works better for me than reading books.
 
I went to school for a couple years and didn't do a thing with it.

If I could do it all again I would focus on primarily building relationships and connections- it's all who you know.

My teachers sucked though, even though I lacked real world experience half the time I would be pseudo-teaching because the teachers would tell people to ask me about stuff. Most of them were just totally out of the loop on stuff and not creative to boot.

If you're in a class with 30 people, probably 1 or 2 will be truely artistic/creative, the rest need to be told exactly what to do and need a ton of positive reinforcement to accomplish anything.

When you go to art/film school that number is probably more like 5-10 per class but still...it's low.

Normally, that's no big deal- everyone has their strengths. In this field though, you really need to be a self-starter and just incredibly creative and focused.

Personally, I would volunteer/intern while taking classes if I could go back again.

At this point, my schooling really was not worth what I got out of it and I made almost no connections or friends...I blame some of that on myself. However, my school truely sucked and most of my teachers were canned not long after I left.

I will probably take some classes at my local school again just to network.
 
Here comes the tough love :)

libneon said:
I went to school for a couple years and didn't do
a thing with it. {snip...} half the time I would be pseudo-teaching
because the teachers would tell people to ask me about stuff.
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Hehe.. you were supposed to be 'that guy' that everyone else mentions
attented the same school they did. They were meant to leave with
*your* name as their primary and cherished, networking connection.

Sure, you're past school and not the wonderkid now, but if still plinking
at it via dvxuser, the fat lady ain't singing yet.

Thats the thing about a film program.. I'll bet if you did the research,
and made the calls, you could revive some of those old contacts,
probably work up a crew and STILL use those 'school resources'.
 
Loki said:
I am ignorant? good thing you've met me before and aren't basing that on my opinion of *one film school I attended.

you basically agreed with me... aside from calling me an ignorant fool. "Filmmaking" to me is not the same as "making a movie" filmmaking implies art, and creativity to me, things which you either have.. or don't..

And yes, the school I attended wasn't good. Of course you knew that though, also having gone there. (See I can also make witty baseless assumptions as well).

ignorance is bliss i guess...
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Sorry, if you got your feeling hurt, dude. I wasn't trying to be witty. I'm very serious. I meet kids like you all of the time. You're statements are very similar to theirs - ignorant and foolish.

Your thinking is way too small. "Filmmaking" can not be with out the "movie making" aspect. Film school is there to shape the mind of the tech and the artistic. You have to have grips, electrics, ADs, ACs, producers, carpenters, location managers, etc. This is the tech side, dog. These aren't the artistic folks, they are the math based, go getters, and people who are good with their hands. Try to drive a production with out them. I know several people who go to film school who could give a damn about the writing and directing. They go for the technial aspect.

I'm all for the artistic. I write, direct, edit and act. I wouldn't have been able to make the films that I have, at the quality that I want, with out first going to film school to get an organized look on how it was done. This also stimulated my mind in how to CREATIVELY pull a production together. I would be lost with out my tech folk. They are fantastic, EDUCATED, and can do the "damn thing" with out question.

How do I know this? I teach and make film. It is my life. I constantly work on the intergration of art, education and business. It is just simply the nature of the game.

Knowledge, not ego or opinion.
 
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I agree with you Mr. Moore,
Film school is what you make of it. I've worked on several film sets with graduates from USC, NYU and Vancouver Film School. They all say the same thing, film school and the teachers should have been much better. In the long run, you can't expect teachers to hold your hand and guide you through it.
For me, film school was just to learn the technical side of the business. BUT, even if you did attend film school, everything on a film set is trial and error. If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong.
Besides, you shouldn't argue with a guy calling himself Loki; in Norse Mythology he is the Trickster God.
Enough said.
 
Although I agree with your guys opinions on film school, let me just clarify, saying that Loki, around here is a respected member, with lots of useful input. Going smart about his nickname, or calling him an ignorant fool are two things that don´t contribute to the discussion at all. He´s entitled to his opinion... Heck, the Guardian is too, and it´s the same opinion. So in all fairness, let´s keep it... err... fair.
 
Matthew B. Moore said:
Sorry, if you got your feeling hurt, dude. I wasn't trying to be witty. I'm very serious. I meet kids like you all of the time. You're statements are very similar to theirs - ignorant and foolish.

Your thinking is way too small. "Filmmaking" can not be with out the "movie making" aspect. Film school is there to shape the mind of the tech and the artistic. You have to have grips, electrics, ADs, ACs, producers, carpenters, location managers, etc. This is the tech side, dog. These aren't the artistic folks, they are the math based, go getters, and people who are good with their hands. Try to drive a production with out them. I know several people who go to film school who could give a damn about the writing and directing. They go for the technial aspect.

I'm all for the artistic. I write, direct, edit and act. I wouldn't have been able to make the films that I have, at the quality that I want, with out first going to film school to get an organized look on how it was done. This also stimulated my mind in how to CREATIVELY pull a production together. I would be lost with out my tech folk. They are fantastic, EDUCATED, and can do the "damn thing" with out question.

How do I know this? I teach and make film. It is my life. I constantly work on the intergration of art, education and business. It is just simply the nature of the game.

Knowledge, not ego or opinion.
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You've met me before?

I don't remember?

No where did I say all film schools were useless, or that they are pointless. Obviously I stayed the course for a reason.

Please stop generalizing my personality based on an interenet forum. And please don't ever refer to me as "kid" again. You know nothing about me, only what've you distilled from this one discussion.
 
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taubkin said:
Although I agree with your guys opinions on film school, let me just clarify, saying that Loki, around here is a respected member, with lots of useful input. Going smart about his nickname, or calling him an ignorant fool are two things that don´t contribute to the discussion at all. He´s entitled to his opinion... Heck, the Guardian is too, and it´s the same opinion. So in all fairness, let´s keep it... err... fair.
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I agree with you about this kind of talk in the forum. I shouldn't be so harsh. Forgive me.

Understand, please, that I find many comments in this thread insulting.

Too close to the bone.

Had to bite back.
 
Loki said:
You've met me before?

I don't remember?

No where did I say all film schools were useless, or that they are pointless. Obviously I stayed the course for a reason.

Please stop generalizing my personality based on an interenet forum. And please don't ever refer to me as "kid" again. You know nothing about me, only what've you distilled from this one discussion.
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You defend your self. I defend many. I'll make you a deal and back off now. Cool?
 
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