Measuring light loss with 35mm adapters

Dennis Wood

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I know this info is all over the web, however after a post in another thread, I thought I'd fire this up in the hope that it may "stick". Light loss and adapters are an area that is constantly confused, and in some cases, misrepresented. A basic understanding of f/stops is required, and perhaps a methodogy for testing. F stops just describe the ratio of front glass diameter to rear aperture diameter. If you were to measure the diameter of the front glass of a 35mm lens, and divide this by the rear aperture diameter, you will get the f value. Using a 50mm lens as an example:

A 50mm f1 lens would have rear lens diameter of 50mm and an aperture area equal to ~2000 sq. mm (50/50 = 1) Thereoretically, this lens would have 0 light loss. You won't find an f1 lens for sale anywhere (EDIT: actually Dan points out there are lots, they're not cheap. Also these measurements are for discussion purposes only as manufacturers will vary.)...but that's another discussion.

A 50mm f1.4 lens would have a rear aperture diameter of 35.7mm and an aperture area equal to ~1000 sq. mm (50/35.7 = 1.4)

Given that the aperture area of the f1.4 lens is 1/2 that of the f1 lens, it requires twice as much light relative to the f1 lens. That is one stop. Each of these represents 1 stop, or a reduction in light of 50% from it's previous value, therefore the rear aperture is halved with respect to area for each stop.

f1 - f1.4 - f2 - f2.8 - f4 - f5.6 - f8 - f11 - f16 - f22

To simply read off the numeric decrease indicated on the camera (with and wthout an adapter + lens) is really not correct. A decrease from f5.6 to f4 is one stop, not 1.6 stops. Of course when you attach the adapter and the exposure drops, we tend to think linearly. There are two considerations. We need to look at light lost by the 35mm lens, and also light lost (or gained) by the adapter itself. The sum of these we'll call the total adapter "system" loss. Here's a practical example based on my own observations with the Brevis.

Let's use an f1.4 lens with the aperture fully open (f1.4).

1. An f1.4 lens has a rear area 50% that of an f1 lens. By definition then, we lose 1 stop of light with this lens at max aperture. If we were using an f2 lens, we lose two stops, and would require four times the light over an f1 lens!

2. If you frame an identical scene with and without the adapter affixed (video camera stays at a fixed distance), the camara can be used as a quick tool to evaluate loss. In my testing a typically drop is from F4 to F3.4. Most cameras have unreported f/stops in between the standards, so you need to be carefull the camera is not reporting one of the intermediates. f3.4 is halfway between f2.8 and f4.0 and therefore represents .5 stops total system loss. There are many techniques in the digital realm to measure, but most people will use their cameras.

3. Adapter loss = Total system loss - lens loss.

Adapter loss = .5 (system loss) - 1 (lost by f1.4 lens)
Adapter loss= -.5 f/stops (with most adapters this will not be a negative number)

In this case, the adapter loses negative .5 stops, (translated, this is actually a gain of .5 stops) then loses 1 stop from the lens to give a net loss of .5 f/stops. This is counter-intuitive, however the numbers are what they are. Typically, you'll see .5 to .1 f stops adapter loss for a total of f 1.5 to 2 stops (assuming f1.4 lens used) with most adapters. If you are lighing a scene, a system loss of two stops means you must quadruple the light levels if you wish to retain the same exposure. Hopefully this helps clear up some confusion.
 
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guskersthecat said:
A 50mm f1 lens would have rear aperture diameter of 50mm. You won't find an f1 lens for sale anywhere...but that's another discussion.
Two corrections:
1. the rear lens diameter IS 33.7mm and the front lens is 51.3mm. I just took the measurements of this one
2. Yes, they are available.
guskersthecat said:
A 50mm f1.4 lens would have a rear aperture diameter of 35.7mm
Not allways. Depends on the manufacturer, lens design, flange, etc. Here is what I have:

Nikon 1.2/55 Front 45.8mm /rear 36mm

Nikon 1.4/50 Front 36.8mm /rear 35mm

Canon1.4/50 Front 41.6mm /rear 30.3mm

Minolta1.4/50 Front 41.3mm /rear 28.6mm

As for light measuring procedure, I am working on it (but a light meter is the only choice).
 
Thanks for the corrections Dan. I wouldn't be stupid enough to argue any points on 35mm lenses with you :-) You've taken "a few" of these apart. Not only do the measurements vary quite a bit, but given coatings, elements etc, so do emissivity levels. Factor in different aperture shapes, (as the calcs are based on perfect circles) and you get all kinds of variables to throw "perfect" calcs. I'm curious to know if there's a standard that is used i.e. measureing light levels vs physical calcs.

On point 2...I should have said "You won't find F1 lenses available at prices mere mortals would afford" :-) Actually, I'm surprised to see how many there are out there. They must weigh a ton.
 
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Eh... Dennis, I am learning every day as well, so... no sweat. As for theory we have f-stops (SLR lenses) and practically T-stops (on cine lenses) the real things. The difference is the latter take into account all "other" variables and you get the real "openings" of the iris. There are variations (nothing film can't handle though), but... hey, on big budgets could make a difference in one's career (or I should say, with "all in place and correct", if the result sucks, you have no excuse)
As for point 2, I am just another mortal myself (the lens was purchased and sent to me to make the "kid" of the family) and YES, IS heavy (they must have forgot some rocks inside but is funny cuz they don't show at all...)
 
lol... I just did that three posts up, maybe you did not notice it (the fella behind the lens). Here it is again (no lens, no rods, no diapers)
 
Jeeps, you've got the ghetto MPIC logo thing going too. Seriously Dan, it's very pretty. As apparently, I've hijacked my own thread, I'll throw in an appropriately obtuse query:

Hey, isn't f/stop short form for "F_ _ _ ing stop"? I'm pretty sure it is, cuz whenever I blow through a stop sign (thinking about other things like adapters) my wife yells this at me. I believe the volume of her voice is inversely proportional to the square of my vehicular velocity.
 
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dan said:
Two corrections:
1. the rear lens diameter IS 33.7mm and the front lens is 51.3mm. I just took the measurements of this one
2. Yes, they are available.

Dan, do you see a difference in brightness between the f1, f1.2 and f1.4?

I've compared 50mm f1.4 with 50mm f1.2 and 55mm f1.2 (all Nikkors), and I don't see any difference in brightness with the lenses open, which is not what I was expecting. Light loss/brightness seems to level off, maybe as it has to come through the same amount of glass once your rear element is nearly the same size as your image.
 
ASG said:
I've compared 50mm f1.4 with 50mm f1.2 and 55mm f1.2 (all Nikkors), and I don't see any difference in brightness with the lenses open, which is not what I was expecting.
You don't see any difference when you have those lenses on an image converter mounted on a camera, right? If that's the case, you are absolutely correct.
With the Noctilux on, I had to stop it down to 5.6 to cause the HVX to open the iris one stop (although, the light was 1/64 less ! ! ! ! !)
From 1 to 5.6 there was not a hint (on the camcorder) of light loss (although the bokeh changed)
That is why I posted a while ago on another thread that I think is not aigrette to use as a guide the iris value on the camcorder. There is a lot going on "behind the scenes" before the aperture value changes.
It is just as true that using a different GG, the light loss is more visible than using Beattie.
 
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