Confused about On Camera Lighting choices...

mightywarlock

mightywarlock

New member
So i have gone through every single post here in the lighting section seeking opinions and still am confused.
This evening i went over to EVS to check out the Pag c6 light that they always recommend, and a bunch on these forums seem to say are very good lights for the money.

I was underwhelmed at what i saw...

I went in all ready to plunk down the cash for one, but it just did not seem bright enough to me at all with the 20w bulb in it.
especially when comparing it to the micro frezzi (i think it only had a 35w bulb in it)...but much much brighter and like the dimmer function...
the focusable light on the Pag seemed ok, but the light just seemed softer and less light overall...
I plan on going back in a few days to check it out one more time before plunking down a lot of money on a frezzi micro or mini, but i just dont get how so many people say the pag is so great when what i saw was ok, but nothing compared to the light out of the frezzi.

Now i have to decide what kind of battery to get if i get the frezzi, and that has me more confuzed than anything (i know i will get 4pin xlr though). considering an nrg belt, but i think i will be very unhappy with the weight...but i also am very afraid of only having one weak battery (such as if i bought either light by themselves in the starter kit with included battery). so either light i will still either want another battery, or have to lug the heavy battery belts around...

for red carpet or interview style stuff, typically how much battery power do you think is necessary for the on camera lights?
and this whole watts and volts and ah is just driving me nutty as well...

( i also saw the cheaper bescor lights recommended here in the forums, but had not really considered them much...still open for more suggestions though).
 
Hi warlock. I really like both the Frezzi and the Pag C6, and they both have fantastic properties. But you can't compare a 35W bulb output to a 20W bulb. The Pag also takes a 30W bulb. Dimmer function on the Frezzi is a lifesaver, but the focusing ability on the pag also acts as a dimmer, up to 50%, without changing color temp. There are many great attributes to both. We also sell lots of the Pag because the package with the barn doors and battery is very affordable. Extra batteries for the Frezzi are cheaper if you buy replacement NP1 batteries for this kit:
http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=91601

I have sold both these instrument to shooters that do red carpet, as well as Litepanels LED lights. If you want max power, just in case, better buy a Mini fill frezzi, not much more than a micro, but you can insert bulbs up to 100W, and dim them. Depending on the wattage you use, you will need multiple battery packs. If you shoot with a 50W bulbs for 2 hrs., you are using 50W/hr, so you will need a 100W/hr belt to get you by. NRG makes lots of those, and they are affordable.
http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=87011B
 
Here is more techy info from www.nrgresearch.com :

UNDERSTANDING CELL CAPACITIES

Nothing could be more important when selecting a battery pack than ensuring it will operate your equipment for the needed length of time, yet few things are as frustrating as trying to make sense of manufacturers capacity ratings. Have you ever wondered why a so-called "two-hour" battery only lasted 20 minutes, or why a 13-amp lead-acid battery would only run an 8-amp load for 40 minutes? It seems logical to expect a battery rated at 13 amps to power a 13-amp load for one hour or a 1-amp load for 13 hours. In most cases however, this conclusion would be incorrect due to the real-world physics of a battery during discharge.

During discharge, a battery's chemical makeup and internal resistance play a vital role in determining what the actual capacity of the battery will be under a particular load. The more quickly power is drawn from a battery, the lower its voltage will drop and the less efficient it will become at delivering power.

Many users consider the amp-rating of a battery to be the most accurate indicator of its capacity. But the amp rating is not a useful figure without knowing under what rate of discharge the claimed capacity was measured and how the battery will de-rate from that figure at the rate you plan to use it! For example, if a battery was rated 20 amps at a twenty-hour rate (almost all lead-acid cells are rated this way), it would theoretically produce one amp for each of 20 hours. If, however, you suddenly demand power typical of the video environment - for example, a 100-watt video light which pulls 8.3 amps - the battery will become far less efficient at delivering its power. It may now only produce a small amount of its originally rated power, as little as 10 or 12 amps. Thus a light that "should" run for 2-1/2 hours might instead run for much less than two.

Many manufacturers publish amp-ratings based on slow rates of discharge over long periods of time. Others unfairly compare their products' performance at an optimum rate to a competitor's performance under a heavy load. This can lead to inaccurate comparisons and the purchase of a product incapable of meeting your power requirements.

In order to properly compare power products you should determine what the power consumption of the equipment you wish to power is. The amperage or wattage draw is often listed on the equipment or in the owner's manual. Converting wattage to amperage is easy. Just divide the wattage by the equipment voltage. If you know the amperage just multiply it by the voltage to find the wattage for example: 2 amps x 12 volts = 24 watts. Once you have found and added together the amperage or wattage of all your equipment decide how long you wish it to operate. Once you have done this finding the necessary battery capacity is simple. Let's assume for purposes of illustration that your equipment will use about 55 watts (4.6 amps) per hour. To run this equipment for one hour, a pack rated at least 55 watt-hours or 4.6 amps at a one-hour rate would be needed. As you can see, it is important not only to find a battery with 4.6 amps of capacity, but one capable of delivering 4.6 amps of capacity over a one-hour period. Always ask a manufacturer for not only the capacity of the battery, but its capacity at your anticipated rate of discharge.

The voltage level at which your equipment shuts off can also play a significant role in runtimes. If a battery pack's voltage drops below the minimum level the connected equipment requires to operate, all the capacity in the universe won't keep your equipment running. This issue is discussed further in the "Voltage Choice" section that follows.

Because lead-acid batteries are typically rated at a slower discharge rate than Ni-Cads it has always been difficult trying to compare the amp-ratings of various power product manufacturers. Attempts to do so have resulted in confusing claims and counter claims. Most manufacturers, including NRG, have now adopted a clearer and more meaningful method of rating pack capacity: the watt-hour rating standard. When correctly calculated, the watt-hour rating expresses the pack's total delivered capacity in watts when it is discharged over a one hour period. Since the power consumption of most equipment is expressed in watts, this figure makes it easy to estimate equipment runtimes. For example, if a camera draws 30 watts and it is powered from a 60 watt-hour pack, it's a safe bet it will run for over two hours. Since a battery's efficiency will increase when it is discharged over a period longer than an hour, the one-hour rate generally represents the worst case available capacity. This method of rating and expressing pack capacity had eliminated the variables in other performance specifications. Unfortunately, some manufacturers still publish enormously inflated watt-hour ratings that are incorrectly based on a 20-hour discharge rate rather than on the correct one-hour rate. Following this section you will find a comparison chart with a sampling of brands representative of products from entry to broadcast level. You will also find a summary of all our power products' performance under the full range of ratings mentioned here.


THE VOLTAGE CHOICE

Professional-grade equipment such as an industrial- or broadcast-level three-chip camera generally has a high shutoff voltage (usually 10.9 to 12 volts). This high shutoff voltage prevents the equipment from fully accessing a 12-volt battery's capacity, since the equipment will shut off before the pack is fully drained. Using a 13.2-volt pack generally allows equipment to fully access all the capacity of the pack and prevents early shutdown. In many cases it also allows lighting to be used simultaneously from the same power source.

Some users fear using these higher-voltage packs on their equipment. It is important to realize that while 12 volts may be specified as the input voltage, every power supply has a wide operational latitude, in many cases as high as 16 or 17 volts. Also, when placed under a load, a 13.2-volt pack drops almost immediately to around 12.5 volts, a perfect operational voltage for professional equipment. While you should always check with the original manufacturer of your equipment, the performance of almost any deck or dockable will be safely improved by utilizing a 13.2-volt pack.
 
Rush said:
Hi warlock. I really like both the Frezzi and the Pag C6, and they both have fantastic properties. But you can't compare a 35W bulb output to a 20W bulb. The Pag also takes a 30W bulb. Dimmer function on the Frezzi is a lifesaver, but the focusing ability on the pag also acts as a dimmer, up to 50%, without changing color temp. There are many great attributes to both. We also sell lots of the Pag because the package with the barn doors and battery is very affordable. Extra batteries for the Frezzi are cheaper if you buy replacement NP1 batteries for this kit:
http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=91601

I have sold both these instrument to shooters that do red carpet, as well as Litepanels LED lights. If you want max power, just in case, better buy a Mini fill frezzi, not much more than a micro, but you can insert bulbs up to 100W, and dim them. Depending on the wattage you use, you will need multiple battery packs. If you shoot with a 50W bulbs for 2 hrs., you are using 50W/hr, so you will need a 100W/hr belt to get you by. NRG makes lots of those, and they are affordable.
http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=87011B
Click to expand...


So, if I was to buy the mini kit that comes with a 60wh battery http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/...ode=91031&Category_Code=2B2A3&Product_Count=2
that 75 watt bulb would last less than an hour with the included battery? But if i bought a 35 watt bulb and swapped that in there, then i would get almost 2 hours? am i correct in that thinking?

After coming in the store, i figured out that no matter which direction i go, i end up spending about $600...
the pag with an EXTRA battery costs almost 600, and the frezzi with a battery belt was just a lil over 600...but the one i looked at was the Anchor! I am thinking that is just going to be too heavy.
but then if i buy just that frezzi kit, i am spending 600 and only getting one battery, but not a belt...but is 90 minutes or up to 2 hours enough for what i need? (again, the red carpet or interview stuff)...(i would buy the 35 watt bulb or just get the micro...havent fully decided yet, but dont think i want those np batteries that come in the micro kit, want XLR).

Why does every aspect of this industry make us stress out over every single choice of equipment!
 
mightywarlock said:
So, if I was to buy the mini kit that comes with a 60wh battery http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=91031&Category_Code=2B2A3&Product_Count=2
that 75 watt bulb would last less than an hour with the included battery? But if i bought a 35 watt bulb and swapped that in there, then i would get almost 2 hours? am i correct in that thinking?
Click to expand...

That is correct, warlock, and you have to remember that those are ideal situations. Real world, you may get 25-35% less runtime.

Yeah, high-draw batteries just don't seem to be moving as fast as technology. It kinda sucks. That's why we have lots of people flocking to LED lights and Mini-HMI lights. They cost more to buy the instrument, but there are less power headaches later. This LED light just got twice as bright in Gen.2 version:
http://idxtek.com/x3.htm

It will do 35W for the power cost of an 11W bulb...
 
i've been using the bescor set ups for quite sometime now and they've always treated me well. nice difused glass, but the frezzi's are sweet. bescor seems best as far as batteries go, but frezzi lights, oh man, so sweet.
 
I use a Bescor 50W light for ENG and interview situations, and I've been pretty happy with it. All the lights seem a little harsh to me, so I clip a diffusion gel on the barn doors. It's like having a little softbox on your camera, and it's really cheap. The dimmer is nice, but I've never used less than full power.

Batteries do get heavy, especially after wearing them for an hour or two. Remember that they never last as long as advertised, but remember also that you won't have the light on all the time. What size you buy is dependent on your application.
 
I have the Pag C6 and can tell you it will not light someone on a red carpet if they are walking 15-20' away from you but I can also tell you that if you are doing interviews up close on camera you'll have people squinting at the bright light and it will be plenty. Just depends on your shooting situation.
 
Paglights are underpowered with 20W globes. We lamp all our Paglights at work with 50W globes. Pag also now makes a dimmable Tungsten base.
 
Id like to see some test footage with that IDX 35 watt LED light. I am wondering if it is a harsh or soft light and that compares to the Litepanels high priced on board LED lights.
 
DVX100Shooter said:
Id like to see some test footage with that IDX 35 watt LED light. I am wondering if it is a harsh or soft light and that compares to the Litepanels high priced on board LED lights.
Click to expand...

We had it on and running at the DVexpo, on top of a DVX100B. It was direct, but not harsher than any undiffused single-ended bulb. When we applied diffusion it was soft and accurate. It was pretty cool, to see how bright LED technology has gotten from just 3 Luxeons... It is not as broad as the Litepanels, physically speaking, so it doesn't have as much coverage, or reach, but it is small and cheaper. However you do have to buy a battery system for it with charger, whereas the Litepanel comes with its own compact battery and charger. The main positive aspect of LED lights is, because they use Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) dimming, i/e a digital circuit feeds pulses of current to the diode, rather than a continuous current with a resistor absorbing current and emitting heat as a byproduct, LED's use 50% less battery power when dimmed to 50%. So a 3-hr battery can last 8 hrs continuosly when dimmed to 35% and used for close interviews at 5-6 feet. Tungsten lights just emit the excess 65% as heat, and still place a full load on the battery. There is also no color T change in the LED. Tungstens get warmer and go orange.
 
On camera light for wedding

On camera light for wedding

What do you think?
Frezzi 75w dimmable on camera mount with 2 batteries.

Frezzolini MFIC-4X 75-watt Dimmer Mini-Fill On-Camera Light - with 4-pin XLR Connector

Bescor PRB-15xlr 12v batt belt/Bescor ATM-PBR auto charger.1 Frezzolini shoe mount

I want to be able to go through a crowd and get some decent lighting while people are dancing, eating etc.

Allan
 
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