The Greatest Low Budget Lighting Item Ever!

[Cool Lights]

Agreed. That stuff is great, miracom. And, MattinSTL, thank you for all the inspiration you have given to us all when it comes to DIY fluorescent lighting. Nothing but outstanding efforts and advice. I hope to power up my 125W CFL a little later today. Maybe I'm wrong about the drop off and soft nature of the bare lamp, but I doubt it'll behave much like a standard 500W fixture.

Thanks to all for your welcome. This is obviously a group of "kindred" spirits. I can't wait to hear what you think about your 125w bulb, but I'm willing to bet you will eventually come to certain of the same conclusions that we did--the larger wattages are really great for big rooms but most of us end up working in smaller spaces and the smaller wattages really do render better results with the measured use of the iris. I can promise you it is not likely it will behave like a standard 500w fixture for sure. You may have to relearn the way you do lighting to use fluorescent.

 

[Cool Lights]

Standard Filmmaker Evolution

Standard Filmmaker Evolution

You know its funny but I was thinking about the moment I realized that I had to become excellent in lighting before anything else. I realized that just like in painting we are dealing totally in light and shadow and how that is presented and in what proportions to each other--and that is our look that we get just like in any painting you can think of.

If we don't like the look we really have no other choice than to figure out why we're not getting what we want and how can we use light better to render the best combo of light and shadow to get a more 3D result.

For me, I probably did what everyone does in the beginning. I ran out and got some halogen worklights and was disappointed in two areas with that. 1). It was way too hot (temperature wise). 2). Just throwing a bunch of light on the scene wasn't what I wanted even if I was trying to use two or three point lighting.

So I watched some television for a while but not for content, for how the programs were lit. I tried to understand what they were doing that I wasn't. Then it dawned on me that a good lighting designer lites up nothing in a scene by accident.

If there's a color swatch on the backdrop or a cucaloris pattern then you can't just wash the whole scene with light or you lose that creative backlighting. Softboxes and chinese lanterns really make people look great but they wash a scene with uncontrolled light. And if that's what you want, you can't do it any better than with those tools. Say you're in a boardroom taking a video (like the Apprentice for instance--a very darkly lit show and not really very interesting contentwise). A chinese lantern above the conference table (and out of sight) would be great for lighting the faces because it gives you 360 degrees around it so you get everyone with one source. Then perhaps you could put a cucaloris pattern against one of the walls for some creativity and to reinforce the "drama" of the moment when someone is going to get fired! Hopefully your chinese lantern falls off before it reaches the walls and doesn't screw up what you had planned there--depending on the wattage in the bulb.

Or a softbox for a fixed spot where someone is standing for a presentation and there is enough distance from the person and the background that the softbox doesn't was out the background. For instance, in E.T. they have those large rear-projected screens (another real gag show not very interesting except from a "how-do-they-make-it-look-like-that" perspective). If the softbox was too bright or covered too large of an area it might dull those screens and what's being shown on them.

Actually what they use for lighting Mary Hart and her partner are some fresnels and primarily two mole softlites (perhaps 1 or 2K I think) which are a bit more directional than a softbox.

So anyway, when I lit a scene in the beginning it was clear to me I had to rethink how I was doing it and I did come to the conclusion that you shouldn't use a bit more lite than you really need to get creative (and colorful) results. Learning lighting (and actually trying to enjoy it) before any other craft will allow you more control over the look than probably anything else you can spend time on. Coming back to fix stuff with color correction later is always possible but its just like the myth in sound that you can "fix it in the mix" later if someone sings a clinker note that it will sound just as good as if it was done right without trickery. I don't think its ever as good as if you really got the look you wanted going into the camera in the first place.

Sound was the second thing I decided I had to be excellent at, but that's a whole other topic!

 

[TheJackyl]

Lol, nice thread, and I'm glad to hear how exellent you are miracom

 

[Cool Lights]

The Jackyl? Carlos the Jackyl? The international terrorist? I thought they got you and put you away!

 

[bloodyjack]

Would this solve the 2 bright issue?
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?product=1559
Its a 3 way flo, this sounds like a great idea because you now have 3 power levels in one bilb. Thay claim 5100 is that close enough?

 

[Everdene]

Would this solve the 2 bright issue?
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?product=1559
Its a 3 way flo, this sounds like a great idea because you now have 3 power levels in one bulb. Thay claim 5100 is that close enough?

But that's only a 14, 19, and 32 watt CFL bulb. It's not ever that bright to begin with. We've been talking about (among other things) 125W and 200W CFLs (which are over 500W incandescent equivalents). A 125W switchable to 60W might be useful.

 

[MattinSTL]

Honestly I think that's a good idea Bloodyjack... I'm buying and testing a crapload of bulbs right now and I think those are worth a try. The thing that's being ignored is reflectors... reflectors are a BIG deal... you can double the output of a bulb with a really well designed, high quality reflector.

I'm definitely in the camp of thinking even 30w can be REALLY useful... and in a car you wouldn't want more then 15w TOPS!

I'm disappointed in the 5100k though... but I could probably live with it.

 

[Illya Friedman]

Not trying to put a fly in anyones ointment, but just because a bulb claims to be "Full Spectrum", doesn't mean it actually is.

Also bulbs from different manufacturers claiming the same color temperature aren't always the same either. Just keep this in mind if you mix different sources in a scene (or different CF in a unit) and your actress hair color changes when walking between two sources- you'll know why.

Don't forget to test.

I.

 

[MattinSTL]

I've been testing BlueMax bulbs and so far I've been fairly happy with them... BUT they are a slightly different color temp from the Kino 55w tubes that I normally use... on a neutral tone material, in this case a natural finish maple dinner table... you can see a slight bias towards pink under the Kino tube and a slight bias towards yellow under the BlueMax bulb. I think the Kino tube is representing the color more accurately. This week I'll be testing Sunalux's SunWave bulbs... which are about the highest CRI bulbs you can get in a standard medium base. 93 CRI and 5550k color temp... I'm excited to see how they compare, and I'll let you guys know what I think.

In the lesser CFL bulbs I have seen slight color differences between bulbs... would it be a major issue while shooting? I kinda' doubt it... but being a perfectionist I'd like to see identical color from bulb to bulb as I've always experienced with Kino tubes.

 

[Cool Lights]

I've been testing BlueMax bulbs and so far I've been fairly happy with them... BUT they are a slightly different color temp from the Kino 55w tubes that I normally use... on a neutral tone material, in this case a natural finish maple dinner table... you can see a slight bias towards pink under the Kino tube and a slight bias towards yellow under the BlueMax bulb. I think the Kino tube is representing the color more accurately. This week I'll be testing Sunalux's SunWave bulbs... which are about the highest CRI bulbs you can get in a standard medium base. 93 CRI and 5550k color temp... I'm excited to see how they compare, and I'll let you guys know what I think.

In the lesser CFL bulbs I have seen slight color differences between bulbs... would it be a major issue while shooting? I kinda' doubt it... but being a perfectionist I'd like to see identical color from bulb to bulb as I've always experienced with Kino tubes.

I don't believe its an issue. I used "Home Depot" 30w 3000K bulbs and I used special 30w 3500K bulbs and some dimmable 25w 2700K bulbs in various scenes in my video. I didn't see big variations among scenes shot with each type of bulb from day-to-day. I did try to use only one type of bulb at a time in all the fixtures and in all the scenes of one section of the video for consistency sake. People pay more money for higher CRI's but I think in many cases they are only doing this because some expert tells them they have to, not because they can really see differences.

I think this is the same thing as when people claim they can hear the difference between sound digitally recorded at 44khz and 16 bit and sound recorded at 96khz 24 bit. I'm a pretty good sound engineer and I am also truthful with myself and I don't believe I can hear major differences.

When CDs first came out many people claimed to be able to hear major differences between CDs and Records and that the record had a "much greater dynamic range" and that 44khz / 16 bit just wasn't enough to describe that range. Much of that perception may actually be due to remastering material and not getting the exact sound of a song that it had at original release.

I say the average person watching a movie or t.v. program wouldn't be able to tell a 10% variation in a color temp with the same lights shot at different times and different scenes with the same people and same surroundings.

 

[Illya Friedman]

I don't believe its an issue. I used "Home Depot" 30w 3000K bulbs and I used special 30w 3500K bulbs and some dimmable 25w 2700K bulbs in various scenes in my video. I didn't see big variations among scenes shot with each type of bulb from day-to-day. I did try to use only one type of bulb at a time in all the fixtures and in all the scenes of one section of the video for consistency sake. People pay more money for higher CRI's but I think in many cases they are only doing this because some expert tells them they have to, not because they can really see differences.

When you have the three executives from the advertising agency standing over you saying,"the 7-UP logo can ONLY be this color green and NO OTHER." You can't be off by even a little. And it can't change at all when the actress carries the can from one part of the set to another. It's not the same thing as making a personal project where subtle variations are totally acceptable.

I think this is the same thing as when people claim they can hear the difference between sound digitally recorded at 44khz and 16 bit and sound recorded at 96khz 24 bit. I'm a pretty good sound engineer and I am also truthful with myself and I don't believe I can hear major differences.

I wouldn't say it's the same, but I agree with your analogy, it's acceptable for most people as most times.

When you're a specialist in any field, you tastes/requirements become very specific. Chefs, structural engineers, and acousticians are not going to experience food, construction and sound the same as you an me. It's just like you get a lot more out of a movie or television if you're involved in cinematic crafts.

96k/24 is a subtle difference, but I think a nice one. Will most people hear it, even with the "high-end" Best-Buy electronics, no. Decent music mastering is of paramount important to have a 96k/24 playback worth a damn.

What monitors are you listening with? If you can hear the difference, a really good monitors set-up will reveal even more. I recommend Lapinski www.lipinskisound.com. I have never heard better neutrality and range in such a relatively low priced monitor, ever.

I.

 

[MattinSTL]

I'm testing bulbs and you can see a visible difference in the color of some objects in front of them... even with a BlueMax 5500k and SunWave 5500k... the BlueMax has a subtle bias towards pink and the SunWave has a subtle bias towards yellow.

Normally I'd prefer the pink... but in this case skin tones look better with the yellow... and let me restate that this is SUBTLE... not obvious, but it's easy to see with the naked eye.

I found this picture on the net and thought it was interesting. Both sides of the baby are lit by "daylight"... 5600k

 

[Jon Oskar]

When you have the three executives from the advertising agency standing over you saying,"the 7-UP logo can ONLY be this color green and NO OTHER." You can't be off by even a little. And it can't change at all when the actress carries the can from one part of the set to another. It's not the same thing as making a personal project where subtle variations are totally acceptable.

I think in a perfect world you are right, it would be nice if the light temp was constant, but at the same time this is a no issue in real world applications. Even with only same temp. lights, there will be huge fluctuations in color depending where you stand in a given location, exspecialy if this happens without a cut. It wold even look strange that the color of the actresses hair would be the same standing next to a window and standing further inside the room. The 7- up can doesn't have to be the exact same color, but the color shift needs to look logic from shot to shot. Anyways for those clients that still demand that there can be the same color in direct light as it is in half shade, this can be much more effectively solved in post and will in any case look fake.

As far as dramatic work is concerned this kind of color shift is not a problem. I think on the other hand that at least in the past some of this lights have rendered skin tones in a not very pleasant way, which i think Matt's photo example illustrates well, and i think this is much more important when judging the usefulness of a light source. Skin is the hardest to correct and is the first to look bad if there is a problem, greenish lights are definitely a worst case scenario.

Beside this, the name of this tread is "The Greatest Low Budget Lighting Item Ever!" and i think that needs to be considered.

Never than less i would love to see some example where this kind of light bulbs are mixed with real daylight and it works, for in the photo example it clearly does not.

The important question should be-

1 Do the lights when used on there own render skin pleasantly?
2 Do those same lights seamlessly mix when used together with real daylight?

 

[Illya Friedman]

The 7- up can doesn't have to be the exact same color, but the color shift needs to look logic from shot to shot. Anyways for those clients that still demand that there can be the same color in direct light as it is in half shade, this can be much more effectively solved in post and will in any case look fake.

Unfortunately, this is not always true in the real world. Some clients demand and expect that the color of the product, or logo, will be rendered correctly at the time of capture. A DIT I know was once handed a transparency overlay for a Leader 5700 and told that "the product must always be inside the 'X'." The "X" was about 5-pixels.

It's total bullsh!t, because you can't even see such a small area of inaccuracy with your eyes.

If you haven't seen The Reel Truth, it's a classic.. http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2474662?htv=12

Beside this, the name of this tread is "The Greatest Low Budget Lighting Item Ever!" and i think that needs to be considered.

I agree completely. There's a $17 instant china ball system complete with a steel baby spud a friend showed me recently. Easy, cheap & lovely light, that might get my vote.

The important question should be-

1 Do the lights when used on there own render skin pleasantly?
2 Do those same lights seamlessly mix when used together with real daylight?

Maybe it's just semantics but I disagree. Pleasant is in the eye of the beholder. Plenty music videos go for a crazy green color, is it natural no, but pleasant...possibly.

I think the question should be.. Does the lamp have a complete spectrum? Set up a Chroma Du Monde and a Waveform to find out. If there's a weird color corruption, it's good to know about it before you shoot- it's not just skin... wardrobe, product, or set dressing conflicts all could become issues.

Of course this only matters if you care what the scene or shot looks like.

Also, daylight comes in a wide variety of color temperatures. Mixing almost any (continuous spectrum) artificial light is fine, as long as you are shooting at the corresponding time of day. The American Cinematographers Manual has a chart that's very handy if you need to rough something in. If you really want seamless with daylight, it's great to know what color temp your daylight is before you start filling with artificial. With a video camera it's a breeze. With film it's helpful if you have a color meter and a good eye.

I've seen first hand many 'reality' shooters that are barely competent to get a shot exposed, and have a total laisser-faire attitude toward lighting, color and the final image. I'm not surprised that these people work, I just find it appaling. There's a reason most reality TV looks like crap, even if they try to slick it up with 24p.

I.

 

[Jon Oskar]

Unfortunately, this is not always true in the real world. Some clients demand and expect that the color of the product, or logo, will be rendered correctly at the time of capture. A DIT I know was once handed a transparency overlay for a Leader 5700 and told that "the product must always be inside the 'X'." The "X" was about 5-pixels.

It's total bullsh!t, because you can't even see such a small area of inaccuracy with your eyes.

If you haven't seen The Reel Truth, it's a classic.. http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2474662?htv=12



I agree completely. There's a $17 instant china ball system complete with a steel baby spud a friend showed me recently. Easy, cheap & lovely light, that might get my vote.



Maybe it's just semantics but I disagree. Pleasant is in the eye of the beholder. Plenty music videos go for a crazy green color, is it natural no, but pleasant...possibly.

I think the question should be.. Does the lamp have a complete spectrum? Set up a Chroma Du Monde and a Waveform to find out. If there's a weird color corruption, it's good to know about it before you shoot- it's not just skin... wardrobe, product, or set dressing conflicts all could become issues.

Of course this only matters if you care what the scene or shot looks like.

Also, daylight comes in a wide variety of color temperatures. Mixing almost any (continuous spectrum) artificial light is fine, as long as you are shooting at the corresponding time of day. The American Cinematographers Manual has a chart that's very handy if you need to rough something in. If you really want seamless with daylight, it's great to know what color temp your daylight is before you start filling with artificial. With a video camera it's a breeze. With film it's helpful if you have a color meter and a good eye.

I've seen first hand many 'reality' shooters that are barely competent to get a shot exposed, and have a total laisser-faire attitude toward lighting, color and the final image. I'm not surprised that these people work, I just find it appaling. There's a reason most reality TV looks like crap, even if they try to slick it up with 24p.

I.

I think you make some interesting points, and while they are very valid in advertising, in dramatic work they don't apply. Also low budget lighting, 7-UP and 100% color match seem like an odd combination.
When i talk about pleasant skin tone i guess i mean natural and no problems with how the light interacts with the make up, as far as im concerned adding green in post is easy and whether her red coat is a slight different shade red is in 99% of cases trivial. As far as using this type of light together with daylight, yes you are right, there is different temp daylight depending of the time of day, so yes so you will most of the time have to correct some with gels. What im yet to see though is that theses type of lights work, gelled or not in combination with daylight.

 

[Cool Lights]

When you have the three executives from the advertising agency standing over you saying,"the 7-UP logo can ONLY be this color green and NO OTHER." You can't be off by even a little. And it can't change at all when the actress carries the can from one part of the set to another. It's not the same thing as making a personal project where subtle variations are totally acceptable.


But isn't this just what color temp you pick period? I think this where you say "well i really do need 5600K to render this color the best." But if you use the same 5600K bulb on different days and the color varies even as much as 10%, hard to believe they can tell. Perhaps if you have the spider attached to your PC screen to sense colors but just by site it could be difficult i think. Also, you may be talking about an issue that is mostly in photography not for film and video in general. I am willing to bet there is a difference in video where most of the images are moving and may be even harder to tell from scene to scene color variations where the same bulb was used in the same set with the same people. Someone mentioned that this is just "drama" where this isn't a problem but I think really it's mostly moving images in general. I'm doing "how-to" videos and I don't think there will really be that much difference in what is expected there from "drama" for instance.

I suppose it may be possible with a static image of a coke can in a photo to tell but not for many people i think.

 

[Cool Lights]

What monitors are you listening with? If you can hear the difference, a really good monitors set-up will reveal even more. [/quote]

I use Tannoy Reveals. I've always been happy with the result. I like a near field monitor because I just don't have enough distance in my control room area to allow a larger monitor really work there.

 

[MattinSTL]

Illya... rule number 1... don't ever talk about a cheap product that really impressed you w/o giving a link! A $17 China ball kit complete with mounting spud? I'm sure I could do something like that but let's see it! Link Please!

Also since we're now talking about mixing daylight with artificial daylight... In my experience the Kino daylight tubes are pretty convincing... I'm not at home right now but later on I'll set up a little test shoot and see what I can get... I'm pretty sure I can get some natural light spill from a window and supplement it with one of my little lights that's using a Kino tube... and I'll bet I can pick up the natural light with the Kino before the shadow falls off... and it will look like the same daylight from the window continuing on. I've mixed Kino daylight with windows to give a look of window key only many times.

So now I gotta' test that and see if I can post the proof.

 

[taubkin]

I think if you have a client, that is paying you the ammount of money to actually justify him being crazy about color reproduciton on set (If you are donig a high-priced ad) you have to be honest enough to spend and have the best equipment you can afford. If I was producing a commercial budgeted for thousands and thousands of dollars, I woudn't try to enhance my profits with DIY lighting items, so I guess this discussion is somewhat moot. But there are great points to be taken, no doubt abot it.

 

[Cool Lights]

I think if you have a client, that is paying you the ammount of money to actually justify him being crazy about color reproduciton on set (If you are donig a high-priced ad) you have to be honest enough to spend and have the best equipment you can afford. If I was producing a commercial budgeted for thousands and thousands of dollars, I woudn't try to enhance my profits with DIY lighting items, so I guess this discussion is somewhat moot. But there are great points to be taken, no doubt abot it.

I think this thread did get on a different track when we started to talk about some of those bulbs, color temps, etc. and turned into something else. It was supposed to be about low budget lighting not about high dollar clientelle and what they need--which is another subject entirely.

My comments on color temp and variations are not directed toward the person who is doing a 7-Up commercial for sure. DIY lighting will primarily be for the independents who are doing their own productions (like me) and for some work for clients that don't have the most demanding needs.