General Motors is nigh onto its deathbed. It's got nothing to lose -- if it could tap into a market and save itself, why wouldn't it?
Who Killed the Electric Car ?
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CallaghanFilms
Veteran
Exactamundo.David Jimerson said:
Supply & demand, fellas...supply & demand.
It doesn't matter. Imagine the strain of every car in California being electric. Market forces or no, there's no way the grid can currently supply the power. So, more power plants are needed.desperatecomfort said:
Mark Harris
Pain in the ass
of course more power plants would be needed. I'm not saying this could be done right now, over night. I don't even think the electric car is a great answer for the same reasons you state. I do think solar power could provide much of the day to day electricity people use in their homes, in several parts of the country (Seattle excluded 
) In Greece, everybody seems to have a solar powered water heater on their roofs. Why not in Arizona?
My point is, if you believe all of this stuff just happens and it's just the market working itself out, etc., I've got a war in Iraq to sell you.
) In Greece, everybody seems to have a solar powered water heater on their roofs. Why not in Arizona?My point is, if you believe all of this stuff just happens and it's just the market working itself out, etc., I've got a war in Iraq to sell you.
OK, no Iraq comments . . . this is teetering on the edge of being too political as it is.
I didn't say the market always chose the best solutions (of course, who agrees on what the "best solutions" are? Who even agrees on what the problems are?). I only said that if the market wants a product, someone will supply it. With electric cars, the technology already exists. If people wanted them, someone would build them. Just about everything we have today is a result of that process.
Who killed the electric car? The same people who killed New Coke, Betamax . . . and the Edsel.
I didn't say the market always chose the best solutions (of course, who agrees on what the "best solutions" are? Who even agrees on what the problems are?). I only said that if the market wants a product, someone will supply it. With electric cars, the technology already exists. If people wanted them, someone would build them. Just about everything we have today is a result of that process.
Who killed the electric car? The same people who killed New Coke, Betamax . . . and the Edsel.
And of course, the question REALLY begged is . . .
If there's such a big conspiracy against these cars and GM is just another pig wearing a top hat in some Thomas Nast cartoon . . .
Why did they even bother building them in the first place?
If there's such a big conspiracy against these cars and GM is just another pig wearing a top hat in some Thomas Nast cartoon . . .
Why did they even bother building them in the first place?
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
Twenty-five percent of the world's cars are driven in the United States. It's a lot easiier to become oil independent when you don't require as much ethanol. To do, in the United States, what was done in Brazil will require a huge change in the way we channel our resources. If we were to use corn as is currently done, to manufacture ethanol, you can forget about your popcorn at the movies because there won't be any corn left over.krestofre said:
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
The real question is why these companies wont install E85 gasoline.
It has 1/1000th of the env. impact.
It is under $2 a gallon
E85 cars have the EXACT same acceleration and top speed
The Big Lie:
They say it costs $10,000 for every E85 pump, BUT it costs $15,000 for every gasonline pump
E85 is the future. It works, we would be oil independent and to take any car and modify it to work on E85 only costs $5000.
Get rid of these tax incentives for the wealthiest 1% (if you make under $30,000 a year you see an extra $3 on your tax return, if you make under $60,000 a year you see $10 on your retun, if you make under $150,000 you see an extra $76, if you make $4.5 million or more you see an extra $89,000), and give everyone $5000 to upgrade their cars to E85. We will be oil independent in 24 months and not hurting the planet.
I'm gonna go hump a tree.
-Jeremy
It has 1/1000th of the env. impact.
It is under $2 a gallon
E85 cars have the EXACT same acceleration and top speed
The Big Lie:
They say it costs $10,000 for every E85 pump, BUT it costs $15,000 for every gasonline pump
E85 is the future. It works, we would be oil independent and to take any car and modify it to work on E85 only costs $5000.
Get rid of these tax incentives for the wealthiest 1% (if you make under $30,000 a year you see an extra $3 on your tax return, if you make under $60,000 a year you see $10 on your retun, if you make under $150,000 you see an extra $76, if you make $4.5 million or more you see an extra $89,000), and give everyone $5000 to upgrade their cars to E85. We will be oil independent in 24 months and not hurting the planet.
I'm gonna go hump a tree.
-Jeremy
dougspice
Veteran
But where do you get the fuel? That's the question being asked.
You can preach about market forces all you want, and in the short term, you have a point. The EV1 was a fine car (I wanted one myself), but people weren't ready to adapt. There are still to this day 6 electric car charging stations in the parking garage of my apartment, and I've never seen one of them used. Fine. The market didn't want the EV1. But that's shortsighted.
I think you'd have to be tremendously ignorant to think that oil companies and private development concerns aren't complicit in an enormous lie to turn profit by exploiting oil as a resource while they still can. Prices are higher than ever; oil company profits are also higher than ever. Almost every country in the world has SIGNIFICANTLY better minimum fuel economy requirements than we do. Why is that? It's because Joe Smith doesn't WANT a car that gets 40 mpg? Right.
You can preach about market forces all you want, and in the short term, you have a point. The EV1 was a fine car (I wanted one myself), but people weren't ready to adapt. There are still to this day 6 electric car charging stations in the parking garage of my apartment, and I've never seen one of them used. Fine. The market didn't want the EV1. But that's shortsighted.
I think you'd have to be tremendously ignorant to think that oil companies and private development concerns aren't complicit in an enormous lie to turn profit by exploiting oil as a resource while they still can. Prices are higher than ever; oil company profits are also higher than ever. Almost every country in the world has SIGNIFICANTLY better minimum fuel economy requirements than we do. Why is that? It's because Joe Smith doesn't WANT a car that gets 40 mpg? Right.
CallaghanFilms
Veteran
I can never quite get that argument about oil companies & their profits. The return on their investment is right on par with any other major private industry (and in many cases it is less percentage-wise.)
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
That's right. You can't look at total profit. You have to look at profit "margin". If Company A sells a $1000 camera for $1500 and they sell 10 cameras, they have $5000 profit. If Company B sells the same camera for $1200, but because of their low price, they sell 50 cameras, their profit is $10,000. ****! Their profit is twice that of Company A, they must be gouging us.CallaghanFilms said:
SilverWolf
Veteran
In ways I agree with both sides. i do believe that a portion of the reason why electric cars aren't mainly in the market is from the big companies but I also believe it's from consumer demand. Lets think about it in 1989 we had a car that got at least 50mpg, what was it called you ask? it's the Honda CRX of course http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5263.shtml
Now lets ask ourselves how come we had a car 17 years ago that got great gas mileage and we can't get mileage in the 100's with just regular gas now ? The answer is in the words of Tim the Toolman Taylor "More Power" in our quest to go faster and stronger with our vehicle we sacrifice efficiency for speed. I truly believe that we could make a great car that got excellent mileage but it's not what the bulk of the people want.
Now lets ask ourselves how come we had a car 17 years ago that got great gas mileage and we can't get mileage in the 100's with just regular gas now ? The answer is in the words of Tim the Toolman Taylor "More Power" in our quest to go faster and stronger with our vehicle we sacrifice efficiency for speed. I truly believe that we could make a great car that got excellent mileage but it's not what the bulk of the people want.
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
E85... It's the oil companies that don't want us to have the fuel...
The car companies actually are into it, it's the freaking oil companies that are against it.
We could grow our own oil...
Personally I want the Mr. Fusion from back to the future so I can take a dump in my car and get 75mpg out of it.
-Jeremy
The car companies actually are into it, it's the freaking oil companies that are against it.
We could grow our own oil...
Personally I want the Mr. Fusion from back to the future so I can take a dump in my car and get 75mpg out of it.
-Jeremy
dougspice said:
OK, when words like "ignorant" start flying, that's when the political talk starts to go places we banned it for. Lockin' up.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
One last word (no disresepect D)
I see more banter against this than for it in this thread. That is surprising.
The oil companies have us by the balls and will until we become independent of oil and the middle east in particular. Solar power ? Rooftops. Hydra ? Wind? Every part of the country has a unique way in which to create electirc power (even Seattle).
Until we 86 the 'guzoline' we're going to keep paying out our arses and Exxon and Sheel will keep getting richer and the Middle East will keep running smack.
Imagine a Middle East with no demand for oil ?
I see more banter against this than for it in this thread. That is surprising.
The oil companies have us by the balls and will until we become independent of oil and the middle east in particular. Solar power ? Rooftops. Hydra ? Wind? Every part of the country has a unique way in which to create electirc power (even Seattle).
Until we 86 the 'guzoline' we're going to keep paying out our arses and Exxon and Sheel will keep getting richer and the Middle East will keep running smack.
Imagine a Middle East with no demand for oil ?
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