Assembling a High Quality Independant Film Sound Kit

G

Gorilla King

Well-known member
I've read Yakee's thread about audio kits and have learned a ton from reading the stickies and various other threads, but I'm still trying to determine exaclty what pieces of equipment to buy for my film. Instead of starting a hundred different threads for my questions, I figured I'd just do this one and bring new questions here as I have them. Who know's, maybe it'll b beneficial to someone else too.

First off....Sound Recorders

I'm seriously considering the SD 702 right now. I really don't think I need the 702t because I write, direct and edit all of my own material. In other words I'm intimatley familiar with it and know what goes where. I'm wondering though, what's so diffeent between the Tascam HD-P2 and the SD 702? I really like the fact that the 702 has a metal casing since my film will be shot predominantly ouside in some pretty rugged conditions, but is it worth the extra money? Based on what I've been told if I got an HD-P2 I'd need a mix pre (which would even out the price difference anyway) but with the 702 it could serve the same function by itself without the mix pre...do I have this right? Ideally I want this equipment to last me a good six years or more so I'm trying to keep that in mind with everything I buy.

Next up....Shotgun Mics

I'll be selling my ME66 next week and I want to know what's available and what it costs in the upper echelon of shotgun mics. So far I'm very seriously considering the Schoeps CMIT 5U. Also if any of you have personally used any of these mics I'd be interested to hear your impressions. Also, if I'm using my Oktava (which I have yet to be able to test for myself) will the audio quality stand up to these upper level shotguns?

And how do you pronounce Schoeps?

Now...The Oktava

Could somebody give me a link to the high quality shockmount and other things that are always recommended for these mics? Everytime I google it I get a bunch of vastly different looking things that all seem to have the same names. It'd be great to actually have pictures of these items so I make sure I get the right ones.

Also when I finish my script in July I'm going to be sitting down with some people to record a quick audio track to lay down over the animatic that I'm going to do for the film. Is there a table top stand that'd work with the Oktava for this? Preferably inexpensive since I can't really think of anything else I'll need it for outside of this.

I think that's everything for now. I'll post any additional questions I might have here. Thanks for your help!
 
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Gorilla,

Here is a link for the shockmount I recommend (be sure to get it with the k-tek bands...otherwise it is crap.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...s&Q=&sku=300643&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

This will work for your Oktava, but not your shotgun (I don't think you can put a blimp over it.)

As far as your shotgun goes, if budget is really an issue, then forget the Schoeps (I pronounce it sheps) CMIT and get the Sennheiser 416 P48. You'll save enough to pay for your shock mount, blimp, windsock, etc. And you're still getting a mic that is used in many many large budget films.

As far as a stand for the Octava, you can go to Guitar Center and get their basic stand for like $50 or so, and that will cover you.

I'm not going to discuss the differences and pluses/minuses of the HD-P2 and the 702 (I haven't used a 702, but own a P2, so that should say something. ;-)

Phil
 
I'm working under the assumption that budget isn't an issue since I'm not going into production until Spring 2007 at the earliest and July 2007 at the latest. I don't want to be wasteful however and don't want to get more than I really need. If I do go with the Schoeps mic I'll consider it a worthy investment Since I'm most likely going to try to do some local commercial work to help fund my film.

Now that shockmount you linked to, that's not the KSSM (is that right?) that Mattin's always talking about is it?

Oh and about the HD-P2, do you have to use an external pre amp with that like the Mix Pre?
 
What is the point of an external audio recorder? Is the sound "that" much better than simply going straight into the camera? I'm asking because we did an indie project a while back and recorded the Steadicam takes using wireless mic's and a DAT recorder. In retrospect, our post production would have been a lot faster if the sound would have been recorded straight to the camera since we wouldn't have to digitize DAT tapes, label each take, and individually sync up hundreds of takes. I cannot fathom the idea of doing this for thousands of takes for an entire feature unless there is some incredible benefits to it. A cable between a microphone and a camera was never much of an inconvenience for us and our shoot. And, the sound turned out fine. So, why go through all the trouble of using a Non-TC sync'd audio recorder for a DV shoot? The tools aren't cheap and neither is the high amount of manual labor required in post for sync. Is it "worth it" ?
 
Gorilla,

I always use a mixer no matter what, whether its my new SD 302 or my Mackie Onyx, there is always a mixer between the microphone and the recorder. I think you will find, ultimately, that you will want/need a mixer, whether it's a MixPre or some other one...even something like the PSC Promix 3 would be good to have...(I think...I've never used it...).

Phil
 
depends on your camera and external setup mixer - microphones -
lets sa\y i will never trast dvx for something more then news or eng .
the camea inputs are **** , so for cinema relies its never
i have no problem run staright to normal cameras with good audio section.
wierless mics which good for the perpes go straight to the camera and get usible sound for normal drama usially cost more then your camera and never would deliver the same amount of qoality as good external recorder or 20$ cable .
 
As I've been told colormeter, camera's don't have the kind of preamp and what not that you find in dedicated equipment. The sound is certainly "good enough" going straight to the camera, but at this point I'm not interested in good enough anymore. I don't want to be one of those filmmakers who ignores sound. I care about my films too much to do that. As for the work flow, since I'm conscious of what I want to use I can cater my workflow towards that. I'll most likely be editing the same day I shoot in most instances and I don't see syching as being a major hassle.

Ptalsky, what would be the benfit of say using the Mix Pre with the 702? I'll most likely only be running one line of audio. I'll certainly invest in it if it'd improve my production, but I want to make sure that I need it first.


Oh yeah and by the way, I just put my ME66K up on ebay along with the Rycote softie and pistol grip if anyone is interested. Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7614867854&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MESE:IT&rd=1
 
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ptalsky said:
Gorilla,

I always use a mixer no matter what, whether its my new SD 302 or my Mackie Onyx, there is always a mixer between the microphone and the recorder. I think you will find, ultimately, that you will want/need a mixer, whether it's a MixPre or some other one...even something like the PSC Promix 3 would be good to have...(I think...I've never used it...).

Phil
Click to expand...
dvmix
is one of the worst - dont touch the small ****
 
Gorilla King said:
I've read Yakee's thread about audio kits and have learned a ton from reading the stickies and various other threads, but I'm still trying to determine exaclty what pieces of equipment to buy for my film. Instead of starting a hundred different threads for my questions, I figured I'd just do this one and bring new questions here as I have them. Who know's, maybe it'll b beneficial to someone else too.

First off....Sound Recorders

I'm seriously considering the SD 702 right now. I really don't think I need the 702t because I write, direct and edit all of my own material. In other words I'm intimatley familiar with it and know what goes where. I'm wondering though, what's so diffeent between the Tascam HD-P2 and the SD 702? I really like the fact that the 702 has a metal casing since my film will be shot predominantly ouside in some pretty rugged conditions, but is it worth the extra money? Based on what I've been told if I got an HD-P2 I'd need a mix pre (which would even out the price difference anyway) but with the 702 it could serve the same function by itself without the mix pre...do I have this right? Ideally I want this equipment to last me a good six years or more so I'm trying to keep that in mind with everything I buy.

Next up....Shotgun Mics

I'll be selling my ME66 next week and I want to know what's available and what it costs in the upper echelon of shotgun mics. So far I'm very seriously considering the Schoeps CMIT 5U. Also if any of you have personally used any of these mics I'd be interested to hear your impressions. Also, if I'm using my Oktava (which I have yet to be able to test for myself) will the audio quality stand up to these upper level shotguns?

And how do you pronounce Schoeps?

Now...The Oktava

Could somebody give me a link to the high quality shockmount and other things that are always recommended for these mics? Everytime I google it I get a bunch of vastly different looking things that all seem to have the same names. It'd be great to actually have pictures of these items so I make sure I get the right ones.

Also when I finish my script in July I'm going to be sitting down with some people to record a quick audio track to lay down over the animatic that I'm going to do for the film. Is there a table top stand that'd work with the Oktava for this? Preferably inexpensive since I can't really think of anything else I'll need it for outside of this.

I think that's everything for now. I'll post any additional questions I might have here. Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

the main diference the 702 t have tc generator what make your life easy to syncronize external recording , the tascam is quit criple device which make your life hard .

microphones - better to have allot of different mics then 1 expencive one - the schoeps is waist of money , buy used 416 or new one 750 in europ 1 hypers of any sort ,pzm lavaliers what will make your life easy , 2 mics are alwais better then 1 which cant deliver all goods ,skip on octava get something better akg or mbho or neuman 185 will do better job .
you can find used rycot suspentions for 1/3 of thenew . good rubers and it will deliver the same .
psc making low cost suspention wich is good for inteial work
 
My $.02...

If you want to go balls to the wall on one mic I would get the Schoeps mk41 and then get the AT 4073 for shotgun instead of getting the Schoeps CMIT and then the Oktava for hyper. Yes, the Oktava is a great deal, yes it sounds pretty good, but (IMHO) the MK41 is miles away better then the Oktava AND the MKH416 is only meters away from the 4073. Additionally, in my experience, you use the hyper about 60% of time on narratives and 95% of time on commercials. So far I have only heard clips of the CMIT and although it is a GREAT shotgun, it is not really worth the extra $600 over a 416 unless you are a serious sound pro (I am a location sound mixer and I have no plans for replacing my MKH60 with the CMIT, even if my MKH60 is destroyed I would probably just get another 60). Bascially, dollar for dollar, you will get more milage with the hyper then the shotgun, IMO.

But that being said, if you have the time (over a year) and the funds, rent some of this equipment before you buy. Run some test, see what works best for you. You already have an Oktava and camera. You need a decent mixer next, get the 302 (again, my opinion) then rent some of the mics, go shoot a 2-day film contest with the equipment. Learn the difference in workflow and sound quality with the different recorders. Don't forget the wireless. Those puppies will start eating your wallet from the inside out.

I have said this repeatedly before but if budget is not a big concern AND you want the sound to be the best, why not just hire a pro? So far you are pushing into $4000+ range and haven't even talked about wireless in that budget (yes they are to be avoided but not forgotten). As you round out a proper package you will easily be hitting at least 6 but more like 10 grand if you stick with the quality gear you appear to be shooting for. For that in most cities you can hire a pro sound mixer and boom man.

If you forge ahead on getting gear, then please, rent this stuff and test it out. Are you going to be the sound mixer? If so, practice, practice, practice. Write up short little scenes you can shoot around your neighborhood. Edit the scenes to a polished finish. Sound mixing is not brain surgery but it does take a practiced ear, knowing what to pay attention to, and enough knowledge of sound to think on your feet and solve problems before they screw you. These principles are gained thru practice and experience. Great equipment can only be maximized in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

You might find with practice that going in camera with your audio is good enough and using that cash to get other audio equipment is a better use of your funds. OR you might discover that paying the extra cash for a TC recorder is worth it for the time saved in synching. We all have different priorities, yours might not match those of the people offering you advice.

I assume since you aren't shooting 35mm, there is some limit to your budget :D so buyer beware and discover what you need most for yourself.

Good luck
 
Yeah I just revaluated all of the equipment I intend to buy including the HVX 200 and a new Mac Book Pro and I think I'm going to do some cost cutting. If his movie is successful I doubt many will be able to really tell the difference between a 1,000 dollar mic and a 2,000 dollar mic anyway.

So okay, let's start fom the top again.

I'm going to get the Sennheiser MKH416 instead of the Schoeps. That's a good money saver there.

I'm THINKING about getting the Tascam HD-P2 instead of the Sound Devices 702, but this is the one I'm struggling with the most. Yes the SD 702 is nearly twice as much, but from what I've heard it has great built in pre amps and the casing looks far sturdier. Not that I'm rough on my equipment, but when we're actually going to be shooting I won't be the one with the recorder and accidents do happen.

As for wireless, I suppose the reason I haven't included it yet is because I haven't reasearched it well enough. I don't know WHEN to use it or HOW, but once I do, if it seems like something I'll need for this film, I'd certainly apreciate some recomendations.

As for hiring someone, I probably would except for the fact that this will be a pretty chaotic shooting schedule I imagine. I have a friend who studied audio engineering who I'm going to try to get be my sound guy on the movie.

Right now in terms of equipmet buying I'm focusing on buying my audio gear first.
Then I'm going to buy that new laptop and put together an animatic for the entire film and then by this fall I should start buying the video gear. after reviewing things, my traget budget for all of my equipment will be 16,000.00.
 
hi Gorilla

no decent wireless mics are good unless you spend a bit of cash. i've got the Micron Explorer ones and am very pleased with them, much as I hate using radios :)

The quality of the sound certainly not much different from the Audio 2020's for the money you save and they are much lighter.

as for the lavalier mic bit, I use the tram tr50's which are really good for the array of mounts it comes with, and less susceptible to wind noise compared the the sanken cos 11 (I've heard)
 
Now with reagards to the lavs, what would be a good wireless soultion for those? Let's say I set aside 1,200.00 for lavs and transmitters. Is this reasonable?
 
the lowest point for good wire less is about 2k 401/lm + lavalier
under that look for used stuf , you can find dissent 195 d/um195 /200d /205 d with um 200 or audio limited 2000 for much lees , both better sounding then the senhiser g-2
 
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