I have a HVX200 and am putting together an audio recording package. I am considering the Marantz PMD671 and the Tascam HD-P2. I really like the HD-P2 and am leaning towards that. I was reading the manual and I'm confused about the timecode part. How does it get the timecode over XLR? Is that supposed to be from a timecode slate? Can I get timecode from the camera any other way besides firewire? Will the HD-P2 sync with timecode over firewire? I'm shooting a feature with shots that probably won't be that long, so do I really need to use timecode between the camera and recorder? Is a timecode slate really necessary? Or should I just stick with a regular clapper slate and forget about the timecode all together.
HVX200, Tascam HD-P2, and timecode
- Thread starter Mike@AF
- Start date
imgentertainment@mac
The Reverend
Well no. Not yet. the HVX sends timecode out firewire. But We are looking for someone to make an adapter from firewire to BNC. So until that happens the only way to use the Tascam is to use it in free run and get the camera close or do like I do and have the Tascame send timecode to a timecode slate and the camera shoot the slate. That way in post you just match the timecode that the camera shoot to the audio track. It works just likie when you shoot film.
soarprod
Veteran
Nope, you cant run timecode into the HVX - you can try using the time of day feature, where both devices are running the same clock. But unfortunatly, you will have to use a slate or read the timecode off the slate and input it onto your sound files.
The HD-P2 doesn't generate timecode, it only reads it which means that you have to have a timecode generator feeding it or have a timecode slate generating for it either wired or wirelessly. <- Not the most favorable option. Syncing in post with a traditional slate should work (you can match up the audio from the HVX & the external recorder in post).
If you are looking for a recorder, might I recommend this one: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=54128
I'll cut you a deal
The HD-P2 doesn't generate timecode, it only reads it which means that you have to have a timecode generator feeding it or have a timecode slate generating for it either wired or wirelessly. <- Not the most favorable option. Syncing in post with a traditional slate should work (you can match up the audio from the HVX & the external recorder in post).
If you are looking for a recorder, might I recommend this one: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=54128
I'll cut you a deal
soarprod
Veteran
Just a brief rundown, 4 channels of recording instead of two = you can have 4 people on their own tracks which is really great with wireless microphones or say two on wireless and one on a boom.
Pre-record function so that you can have it recording a few seconds in advance - good for gettings things that only occur once (sound fx recording)
Built in 40gb hard drive for recording. You dont have to bother with compact flash and you get 38 hours of recording in 24bit 48Khz mode. You can backup to compact flash with the edirol and have your audio in two places.
Tascam hasnt always had the best microphone preamps - I think the Edirol's are up to spec but any recorder is better with a mixer in front of it (like a sound devices 302 or shure mixer).
You can edit the audio with the edirol's built-in editor and run eq's and fx on already recorded audio.
Both are light weight and easy to use. Both have built in microphones and speakers. Both have a easy to read LCD screen. Both have a built in limiter for preventing peaking in the audio.
Battery life is a little better with the Tascam but you can run d-cell batteries into either making it moot.
The edirol also has an L Terminal for Linking a Digital Video Camera
The R-4's L terminal lets you connect a similarly equipped digital video camera to synchronize the camera start/stop while R-4 is recording and playback. Counting the camera's two channels, this configuration gives you a total of six audio channels.
192 Khz recording is more of a spec then an actual usable feature. 24bit 96khz is the maximum dynamic range that even the best theater in world can produce. It is the new mastering standard and most new gear is supporting this standard. A few other companies upped the ante and jumped to 192khz for sound manipulation in post but it doesn't really gain anything for you. For example: the human ear can only go from 20hz to 20khz. In some instances, up to 22-23Khz but few sounds in nature hit that high.
For digital recording, you need to double that top number to get a proper sampling. So we have 48Khz as a standard. You may know that CD's use 44.1Khz 16 bit recording. Well they found that 16bit can be limiting and 44.1 doesnt cover sounds up to 23khz so 24bit 48Khz became the new standard. For recording music, they wanted a little more accuracy and so they went to 24bit 96 Khz - ver much overkill for dialog recording but musicians want their stuff at "the highest quality".
Pre-record function so that you can have it recording a few seconds in advance - good for gettings things that only occur once (sound fx recording)
Built in 40gb hard drive for recording. You dont have to bother with compact flash and you get 38 hours of recording in 24bit 48Khz mode. You can backup to compact flash with the edirol and have your audio in two places.
Tascam hasnt always had the best microphone preamps - I think the Edirol's are up to spec but any recorder is better with a mixer in front of it (like a sound devices 302 or shure mixer).
You can edit the audio with the edirol's built-in editor and run eq's and fx on already recorded audio.
Both are light weight and easy to use. Both have built in microphones and speakers. Both have a easy to read LCD screen. Both have a built in limiter for preventing peaking in the audio.
Battery life is a little better with the Tascam but you can run d-cell batteries into either making it moot.
The edirol also has an L Terminal for Linking a Digital Video Camera
The R-4's L terminal lets you connect a similarly equipped digital video camera to synchronize the camera start/stop while R-4 is recording and playback. Counting the camera's two channels, this configuration gives you a total of six audio channels.
192 Khz recording is more of a spec then an actual usable feature. 24bit 96khz is the maximum dynamic range that even the best theater in world can produce. It is the new mastering standard and most new gear is supporting this standard. A few other companies upped the ante and jumped to 192khz for sound manipulation in post but it doesn't really gain anything for you. For example: the human ear can only go from 20hz to 20khz. In some instances, up to 22-23Khz but few sounds in nature hit that high.
For digital recording, you need to double that top number to get a proper sampling. So we have 48Khz as a standard. You may know that CD's use 44.1Khz 16 bit recording. Well they found that 16bit can be limiting and 44.1 doesnt cover sounds up to 23khz so 24bit 48Khz became the new standard. For recording music, they wanted a little more accuracy and so they went to 24bit 96 Khz - ver much overkill for dialog recording but musicians want their stuff at "the highest quality".
soarprod said:
I don't think that feature will work with the HVX200 will it?
I like the idea of the hard drive built-in. Are there any potential issues with being a hard drive as opposed to the memory card?
I understand the deal with the 192kHz, not really a big deal.
I plan on getting a Sound Devices 302.
soarprod
Veteran
I think the L terminal is only on sony cameras - the LANC or something.
Only problem with the HDD is dropping the recorder from several feet while it is recording. Same thing goes for any equipment: camera, lights, laptop, etc. The edirol has a compact flash slot where you can backup your stuff for transfer to computer or just as a backup. The next level of having a HDD recorder are the sound devices products like the 722 or 744T ~ which are pricey.
I have a SD 302 - freaken sweet - love it
Only problem with the HDD is dropping the recorder from several feet while it is recording. Same thing goes for any equipment: camera, lights, laptop, etc. The edirol has a compact flash slot where you can backup your stuff for transfer to computer or just as a backup. The next level of having a HDD recorder are the sound devices products like the 722 or 744T ~ which are pricey.
I have a SD 302 - freaken sweet - love it
I gotta work in a few hours.Okay, then I'll ask the stupid question. Why bother with external recording at all? If the camera will record 16bit/48kHz and automatically be sync'd to the video why not just record straight to the camera? Keep in mind that between lighting setups we will be checking the shots for focus and sound and to make sure the shots are okay in general before breaking down the lighting.
Just to clarify (I had this tc discussion with Tascam and another HD-P2 user), the Tascam can actually generate TC, it just doesn't have a way to synch that timecode to anything else (no TC out). Yes, I know it is a nit-pick, but just in the flavor of keeping things accurate.
When you're working with TC, there are other issues to think about, such as the framerate you want to record, whether you want drop or non-drop frame rates, whether you want the recorder to add pull up or pull down (the Tascam will do this), etc. You don't really need a TC slate, a standard slate will work, but the TC slate will give you another visual cue to use for synching.
If you are thinking at all about the Edirol, I would hold off a bit. They are supposed to be announcing soon (maybe at NAB?) a new version of their 4 track recorder with TC. So, assuming they don't replace the current model, but add a new one, you should be able to get the current one a bit cheaper, or go with the new one and add TC. (There is a review of the R4 in this month's DV magazine you should take a look at...it was okay...not great, not bad, just okay).
Phil
When you're working with TC, there are other issues to think about, such as the framerate you want to record, whether you want drop or non-drop frame rates, whether you want the recorder to add pull up or pull down (the Tascam will do this), etc. You don't really need a TC slate, a standard slate will work, but the TC slate will give you another visual cue to use for synching.
If you are thinking at all about the Edirol, I would hold off a bit. They are supposed to be announcing soon (maybe at NAB?) a new version of their 4 track recorder with TC. So, assuming they don't replace the current model, but add a new one, you should be able to get the current one a bit cheaper, or go with the new one and add TC. (There is a review of the R4 in this month's DV magazine you should take a look at...it was okay...not great, not bad, just okay).
Phil
soarprod
Veteran
I'll take another shot at this one. Nothing really wrong with recording straight to camera - you will want to monitor the audio regularly. Playback is a pain for the audio guy since he must have the video op playback for him. The monitoring quality of the HVX isnt the best but acceptable. Having the sound stuff tethered to the camera can be a pain especially when it is handheld, fast moving or stedicam. 24bit gets you a little extra quality which is nice. I normally record to both devices for the assurance that I am getting it in the can or hdd in this case.
A pro sound recorder dedicated to nothing but sound v. a video recorder where sound is an afterthought... something to consider.
A pro sound recorder dedicated to nothing but sound v. a video recorder where sound is an afterthought... something to consider.
Mike, my question for you is why are you doing that checking between setups? Either you need to do it before you breakdown the current setup, or just pay attention during the shots. If you don't already have one, get an external monitor to watch from while shooting, and get a good set of headphones and monitor from whereever you are recording. What are you going to do if you find out a shot was out of focus if the lighting has already been moved for the next shot? Checking everything will also slow things down for you quite a bit. Be sure to budget in the extra time. (Now, on large productions, they will often do a video review of a shot before moving on, but, they have a full video assist set up, the director can watch everything while all the other departments get ready to move on (moving on can take an hour or more, and they will be less agressive, generally about the number of pages they target to shoot each day than the typical low budget indie).
When I direct, I have my headphones all at all times, and my face stuck in a monitor during the shots. This way I know immediately if it is good or not. (Another benefit of using a larger external monitor...you can tape off or use gels to mask the 16x9 framelines and shoot at 4x3. This way you are framed for both and prepared for both video and film distribution. You can apply your 16x9 mask in post).
Phil
When I direct, I have my headphones all at all times, and my face stuck in a monitor during the shots. This way I know immediately if it is good or not. (Another benefit of using a larger external monitor...you can tape off or use gels to mask the 16x9 framelines and shoot at 4x3. This way you are framed for both and prepared for both video and film distribution. You can apply your 16x9 mask in post).
Phil
I would actually review the shots before physically breaking down the lighting setup. Shouldn't take that long to check the shots since we would be transferring to a MacBook Pro via Firewire anyways. I want to monitor as we shoot whenever possible, but some of the shots will be steadicam. I also want to make sure the files are corrupted.
Why would I block for 4x3? We're shooting HD and going into an HD world. HS is supposed to be 16:9 and eventually all TV's will be 16:9. No reason to block for 4:3 and 16:9, just 16:9.
Why would I block for 4x3? We're shooting HD and going into an HD world. HS is supposed to be 16:9 and eventually all TV's will be 16:9. No reason to block for 4:3 and 16:9, just 16:9.