Light tests at night, with interesting results....

Kugar13

Well-known member
Hello all,

Last night my crew and I tested a few lights at night to see what it would take to light a house at night enough to allow us to catch decent footage with the DVX100A, without using a F-stop lower than 4.0

We have been toying with the idea of buying shop lights, portable street lights, and the like. Even tested a few (shop lights) with disappointing results.

Then I remembered over a year ago I had purchased an old (70's) light from a theater shop that was clearing out their warehouse. The guy who sold it to me didn't know much about the unit. It was big, heavy, has an AC and DC ballast.... yatta-yatta. So I turn that puppy on and it will light an whole apartment building from the sidewalk across the street. I was most impressed. I white balanced and was pleased to discover the light was sufficient, even looked good.

Our next test was with a flood light. We put it on a scoop and tested it. I was shocked. The light traveled the same distance and 'appeared' to have the same intensity to the naked/untrained eye (although the color temp was obviously different). We mounted two flood lights with scoops on a board and tested them from the same distance. The apartment building was well lit. The flows allowed us more flexibility.... allowing us to mount 2 or more lights cheaply to cover a great distance. I white balanced and to my horror the image came up dark. I walked my DVX100A towards the apartment building to see how close I needed to be to get a difference in the image without touching the iris, etc. I walked across the street to the curb in front of the building and nothing! It was way too dark with an f-stop of 4.0. I'm by no means a lighting expert (duh, hu?). My only guess is the color temperature of the floods and the build in diffusors (in the glass head of the lamp) contributed to the difference.

As it turns out the lamp/light that had great results has a
CID 99-0211 bulb/lamp rated at 5600k. It is Italian made, by a company in which I can't currently recal the name (Tusen?)

So, could anyone provide any additional advice as to why I had poor results with the flood lights? Is there something I may have did or didn't think of that made the results turn out poorly?

Thank you for your advice, wisdom, experience, and taking the time to answer this post.

Your friend,

Kugar
 
All of the 1/3" CCD cams do not have exceptional low lux performance... I'll be the first to say that this may be my own ignorance in which I'd love to be corrected by a more knowledgeable cinematographer... but why F4.0? Why not just shoot open? Or at least shoot at whatever it takes to get a proper exposure?

This is an honest question... is it because you want deeper DOF? Light doesn't travel as well for our purposes as you would think... to light something from across the street... well that's a huge distance to ask of anything less then thousands of watts of lighting.

The first light you mentioned... which I presume was adequate... what kind was it? Halogen or incandescent lights don't do 5600k... that takes a flo or an HMI... if this thing was any kind of gas light, like an HMI then yeah... THAT kind of light travels pretty well! The only other way to get adequate lumens at distance is with a lens... like a fresnel or an ellipsoidal. What does the italian light LOOK like?

Finally... have you got any grabs of this stuff to post?
 
MattinSTL

Thank you for the reply.
I selected 4.0 because it is my understanding 4.0 is the lowest F-stop without sacraficing quaility of the pic. If I went to 2.0 or lower the pic looks much brighter, but at the cost of quality. From my understanding 5.6 is the best F-stop for the DVX100A, but it was too dark.

The first light, to my amazement, was adequate. I don't recal the brand (I am at work) but it was Italian made (Desiota / Tensen ???). It was named the Sun Beam/Sun gun. The guy that sold it to me said it would sell for $5000.00 new. It is def not a fresnel or ellipsoidal. It uses a CID bulb/lamp.

No grabs. I let one of my crew take it home to tinker with it (there is a spotlight - flood knob on it that wasn't working properly). I'll get it back and put some grabs up.

Thank you again!

Kugar
 
Sounds like Desisti... and yeah, any type of discharge lamp is gonna' travel great. That's the technology they use for search lights.

I'd take the softer picture of an open aperature over the lighting and exposure battle.
 
MattinSTL said:
Sounds like Desisti... and yeah, any type of discharge lamp is gonna' travel great. That's the technology they use for search lights.

I'd take the softer picture of an open aperature over the lighting and exposure battle.
Wow, you were right! Is there ANYTHING you don't know? Seriously... you really know your stuff!
 
Still curious

Still curious

I still don't understand how two lights that seem to light an area with equal intensity (yet different temperature) would have a huge difference of effect on the camera's ability to see the area lit. The floods didn't make a difference at all. Is there something I don't know that would explain this?

Thank you!
 
One detail grabbed my eye: walking closer with the CAMERA surely does not make the building any lighter. You have to move the LIGHTS closer...

The eye lies, the light meter, or the video footage , is the best judge of illumination levels. If one lamp is dimmer than the other there is a reason to it. Less power/efficiency in the bulb, different reflectors, lenses, radiation angle, you name it.

And the basic rule with lamps is: double the distance, illumination is one quarter. Bring it closer half way, four times the illumination.

And there is really no quality reason to avoid large f-stops in DVX100.
 
Thank you

Thank you

Thank you for your reply.

I don't know what I was thinking.... walking closer... =)

So, an f-stop of 2.0 or wide open doesn't effect the quality of the footage? I thought I had read anything below f-stop 4.0 would equal a degrade in quality of footage/focus.

Thank you!

kugar

Petrus said:
One detail grabbed my eye: walking closer with the CAMERA surely does not make the building any lighter. You have to move the LIGHTS closer...

The eye lies, the light meter, or the video footage , is the best judge of illumination levels. If one lamp is dimmer than the other there is a reason to it. Less power/efficiency in the bulb, different reflectors, lenses, radiation angle, you name it.

And the basic rule with lamps is: double the distance, illumination is one quarter. Bring it closer half way, four times the illumination.

And there is really no quality reason to avoid large f-stops in DVX100.
 
Your eyes do not have a good perception of true illumination or color temp... there's a reason that you can choose from a couple dozen light meters. Fortunately for us, but unfortunately for video production, our eye / brain is very adept at adjusting every parameter of lighting for the best possible result... a camera is a lifeless machine that needs to be adjusted for every lighting situation and it's limits are fairly constricted.

The fact is that the Desisti is putting out a lot more lumens even though your eyes do not perceive it... the nature of a discharge lamp is also a factor. For sake of extrapolation let's say that you have a laser at one end and a car dome light at the other end... the laser is actually using WAY less power then the car dome light... and yet it travels miles at incredible intensity. The technology of the discharge lamp is such that even though it's not that much power (relatively speaking) it's able to travel very well w/o such a dramatic drop in lumens.

As you play around with a larger variety of light you will be impressed at the range of lighting tools at your disposal... every form of light serves a purpose with it's unique characteristics... and I certainly couldn't explain how or why the different types of light do what they do, but once you use them there's no forgetting what works for a particular job.

Regarding lumens and lighting value judgements... you need to accept what the camera sees as fact... and once your budget allows it you may want to consider getting a light meter... or else just make peace with the knowledge that your brain is more advanced then your mind (just like all of us) and some situations don't appear to make sense even though the science is there proving it's true. Just remember that discharge lamps are distance lamps... or daylight simulators in the case of HID.
 
This is again a bit difficult to explain without drawings, but I'll try.

Light is light is light. Light from discharge lamps is no different from halogen or normal tungsten.

Tha basic rule is the inverse square law: double the distance from the source -> the light spreads to four times the area -> intensity drops to 1/4.

This holds true to point sources, which normal video or photo sources are not.

Soft boxes behave a bit differently. If you move a close soft box to twice the distance, the intensity does not fall fourfold. It is possible to calculate a theoretical "back distance" for a soft box or fresnell spot and use that for the calculations. Say we have a soft box 1 meter away from the subject. Move it to 2 meters and measure the light. It is possible to resolve this "back distance" from this. In this case 1+x and 2+x should give the 1/4 ratio (can not extemporize the equation and type it here, sorry. Those with math skills can figure this out themselves, on others this is lost anyway...)

Summa summarum: soft boxes and fresnells, spots etc do behave according to the laws of physics, they just are closer to the subject than their theoretical distance is, which should be used in the calculations (in calculations their physical distance is replaced by a point source placed further away). This is easy to visualize.

Laser light is also light. In laser beam the rays are (almost perfectly) linear. This means the back distance is infinetly big. Thus moving the laser source away can not have (much) effect. After all ∞ is the same as ∞+a, if we move the laser a meters.
 
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