Barry_Green
Moderator
Some users may have noted that the "Other Cameras" forum has undergone some changes -- first it was completely removed, and now it's been restored under the "Off Topic" section.
Is DVXUser "kicking people out"?
No, but DVXUser is re-focusing its emphasis back to its core community, a community spirit which we feel has been diminishing as other cameras and other products were brought in.
There's been some discussions among some of the mods. There's split feelings, actually. Some enjoyed the "big tent" and "all are welcome" feeling. Others are not so happy with the argumentative "mine is better than yours" things that have come along with it.
Basically, once upon a time this was DVXUser, and people understood that the common bond, the one thing that brought this community together and made it huge, was that we shared something in common -- we were DVX users. That part was understood. It was the basis for forming a community. Everyone was on the same team. Think of it like when you go to church -- people go to church to socialize and to learn, and they're friendly, but the common bond is that everyone believes basically the same thing. Doesn't mean there aren't some doctrinal discussions and disputes even, but "it's all good." Everyone's on the same side.
Jarred grew the site by opening it up -- he added the XL2, then the Sony, then the JVC, then the H1. And with it, we grew bigger, but now we had contention. Instead of church, it became like politics. People arguing their case. People downtalking other people's choices. And when we would try to temper the discussion and moderate posts, we'd be met with chants of "Free speech!" and "In the name of truth!" There were crusades. And lots of "mine is better than yours."
Actually, politics is a good example -- it's like we used to be one political party (and sure, there's infighting in political parties, but basically everyone believes and argues for the same cause). But what happens when you put two political parties in the same room together? Chaos. Now try five or six political parties all in the same room.
That's not a community, that's a street fight.
So -- compare a church meeting with a town hall. In the church meeting people are asking for understanding in what they already believe and already enjoy. In a town hall, people are arguing and trying to change someone's opinion.
Well, that's what's been happening to DVXUser. In the DVXUser of old, people helped each other, we acknowledged our shortcomings and we shared techniques to make things better. We were friends. We were family. And we liked it here. We liked who we were, and what we did.
In the DVXUser of today, there's contention and arguing. There's people going around threadcrapping on the other camera threads. There's conspiracy theorists looking for "shills" and "sellouts". Lots of accusations all over the place.
So Jarred tried to control it by separating all the other cameras into an "Other Cameras" forum, and re-posting the forum guidelines which say "we're a community of filmmakers primarily focused on the DVX/HVX." We thought we could keep each group happy in the individual camera forums, make individual communities in there, and we wouldn't have a problem, right?
But it doesn't stay there. It comes into the other forums, and it just causes fighting.
Yet the community is bigger. DVXUser grew and grew.
So the debate was: do we grow the community, at the risk of losing its "soul"? Can we all get along? Should we even try? Chris Hurd seems to have most of that figured out, but he has to rule his place tightly to do it. And do we really need two DVInfo forums? Does DVXUser need to try to do what DVInfo does so well? Or should we let DVInfo be DVInfo, and we should be who we were -- and when we were what we were, we grew incredibly quickly anyway.
There's valid points on both sides. But one thing that cannot be argued -- this place used to feel like "home", now it feels like a town hall. What Jarred had to decide is which way he prefers it. There are moderators on both sides of the fence, the debate was strong.
I can see the appeal of having everyone under one tent. But I also cannot deny that it just isn't working. The constant bickering is absolutely counterproductive, and I've had members tell me in PM's that they're scared to post here because of a certain few who are vocal and combative. That makes me most displeased -- this should be a welcoming community, not a place where people are scared to post because someone will jump down their throat! :furious3:
Nobody minds honest, frank, fact-based discussion. But that's not what we're getting. What we're getting can only be described as a "bitchfest". So you have to evaluate what's happening based on what it *is*, not on what it *should be*.
And when it all comes down to it, is this community a community? Or is it a slapfest? And how do we recover its soul, if it has one?
We've tried to help it along by actively monitoring threads and squashing the incendiary ones before they can flame out of control. DVInfo-style. But some people are whining about that. Again we get the "free speech" and "censorship" and "sellout" whining. Well guess what, folks -- anarchy doesn't work. You have to have some semblance of order, or this place will devolve into what IndieClub became. And that would be a disaster.
Then the other day I went and checked in on a JVC-only site and found that someone has a four-page thread entitled "THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HVX200" and I thought -- okay, first of all there's not much "truth" in it, and second, how would he like it if I posted a "THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HD100" thread, and then third I thought -- "y'know what? He posted that thread on a JVC-only site. So -- let 'em. That's fine. If that's the kind of thing they want to talk about there, then they should be allowed to do so, unmolested." If he tried that here, or on the HVX forum on DVInfo, you can bet I'd correct every assertion he made, but I don't go on HD100 forums and say "your camera's crap, give it up" and I don't go into XLH1 forums and say "how can you guys stand this, the lens controls are ridiculous and unusable." What purpose would that serve? I will go in and answer questions on those forums if I know the answer, but I will do so neutrally and I won't go rag on their product nor will I try to "convert" them to "the one true light" (whatever that may be). And if they want to convince themselves that their chosen product is "the best", then hey, by all means, they should feel free to. It's a COMMUNITY, where they have a COMMON INTEREST, and I respect that. Heck, I encourage it.
I wouldn't go into another guy's church meeting and say "you're following a false prophet", nor would I go in a Scientologist church and scream "you're worshipping science fiction by a guy who wrote science fiction novels!". Even if I believed those things are true, and even if I believed that those people would be better off if they believed the same way I did. But there's no way I'd do that to them. I'd let them be. If they choose to worship those things, that's their choice and it's America and they should be free to do so unmolested.
That's why I think DVXUser was such a hit before it decided it needed to become all-inclusive. And why I think XLCinema could be a hit. And why sonyhdvinfo.com is doing well. And why DV.com is such a combative slapfest. And why DVInfo needs to be tightly moderated, and why no other site has anything nearly approaching the "family" feeling that DVXUser has (well, had).
I'd like to see all the products have a chance to develop a successful community like DVXUser was. If I got an H1, I'd like to think that I could visit XLCinema and find a like-minded community who would help me get the best from my product, and whom I could help. And I'd like to have a community where I could say "I HATE this lens, what other lenses have you used, I want one that performs at least as well as the HVX lens" without getting BITCHED AT in return. A place where people understand my frustration and can help, instead of them thinking "you're just a shill trying to rag on my product." Because with a helpful like-minded community you can do the former, but with a "big tent" philosophy you get the latter.
So -- for my part, I would prefer a return to a like-minded community where people respect where they are. You wouldn't go to someone else's house and pee in their pool, would you? And I'd like to see each platform enjoy such a community. And frankly, we've tried it under the "big tent" at DVXUser and -- it isn't working. It doesn't work, and it can't work. People don't feel "safe" and "among friends" anymore, now they always feel that there's a fight ready to brew.
So Jarred decided to axe all the other camera forums completely last night. Recommended that JVC users and Sony users could go to DVInfo if they wanted, and Canon users would want to check out the new spinoff XLCinema.com.
Obviously that didn't go over too well... it was abrupt, there was no advance notice, people came here and found that their forums had been cut off. Jarred has restored the forums now, but he's moved them to "off topic".
Users of other products are welcome here. Just please recognize that the backbone of this community is the common bond we share from using our three chosen tools: DVX, HVX, and soon Red. That's what this group is about. We're filmmakers and commercial producers and wedding shooters and infomercial shooters and event shooters who came together to form this community to talk about, share, ask and inform each other about the things that form our common bond: the tools that we use. The DVX, the HVX, and soon the Red. The DVXUser community is all about THE DVX USERS. The people who use the tool. Others are welcome here. Just please don't pee in the pool, don't talk politics and don't try to convince us of the superiority of some other tool, because that's not what we're here for.
We support DVInfo.net, we view it as our sister site. It's a fantastic site that does what we don't, and we do what they don't, and they've managed to get multiple camera communities to co-exist. And we support the nascent XLCinema.com for Canon users, started by longtime DVXUser members who have chosen a different platform. We hope they enjoy the same sense of community that DVXUser does, has, and will again.
The "Other Cameras" forum here will remain open as long as it peacefully coexists with the main focus of the site. If bickering and combativeness erupt again, then (like birds from the nest) Jarred may well usher the young ones to go find a nest of their own.
Is DVXUser "kicking people out"?
No, but DVXUser is re-focusing its emphasis back to its core community, a community spirit which we feel has been diminishing as other cameras and other products were brought in.
There's been some discussions among some of the mods. There's split feelings, actually. Some enjoyed the "big tent" and "all are welcome" feeling. Others are not so happy with the argumentative "mine is better than yours" things that have come along with it.
Basically, once upon a time this was DVXUser, and people understood that the common bond, the one thing that brought this community together and made it huge, was that we shared something in common -- we were DVX users. That part was understood. It was the basis for forming a community. Everyone was on the same team. Think of it like when you go to church -- people go to church to socialize and to learn, and they're friendly, but the common bond is that everyone believes basically the same thing. Doesn't mean there aren't some doctrinal discussions and disputes even, but "it's all good." Everyone's on the same side.
Jarred grew the site by opening it up -- he added the XL2, then the Sony, then the JVC, then the H1. And with it, we grew bigger, but now we had contention. Instead of church, it became like politics. People arguing their case. People downtalking other people's choices. And when we would try to temper the discussion and moderate posts, we'd be met with chants of "Free speech!" and "In the name of truth!" There were crusades. And lots of "mine is better than yours."
Actually, politics is a good example -- it's like we used to be one political party (and sure, there's infighting in political parties, but basically everyone believes and argues for the same cause). But what happens when you put two political parties in the same room together? Chaos. Now try five or six political parties all in the same room.
That's not a community, that's a street fight.
So -- compare a church meeting with a town hall. In the church meeting people are asking for understanding in what they already believe and already enjoy. In a town hall, people are arguing and trying to change someone's opinion.
Well, that's what's been happening to DVXUser. In the DVXUser of old, people helped each other, we acknowledged our shortcomings and we shared techniques to make things better. We were friends. We were family. And we liked it here. We liked who we were, and what we did.
In the DVXUser of today, there's contention and arguing. There's people going around threadcrapping on the other camera threads. There's conspiracy theorists looking for "shills" and "sellouts". Lots of accusations all over the place.
So Jarred tried to control it by separating all the other cameras into an "Other Cameras" forum, and re-posting the forum guidelines which say "we're a community of filmmakers primarily focused on the DVX/HVX." We thought we could keep each group happy in the individual camera forums, make individual communities in there, and we wouldn't have a problem, right?
But it doesn't stay there. It comes into the other forums, and it just causes fighting.
Yet the community is bigger. DVXUser grew and grew.
So the debate was: do we grow the community, at the risk of losing its "soul"? Can we all get along? Should we even try? Chris Hurd seems to have most of that figured out, but he has to rule his place tightly to do it. And do we really need two DVInfo forums? Does DVXUser need to try to do what DVInfo does so well? Or should we let DVInfo be DVInfo, and we should be who we were -- and when we were what we were, we grew incredibly quickly anyway.
There's valid points on both sides. But one thing that cannot be argued -- this place used to feel like "home", now it feels like a town hall. What Jarred had to decide is which way he prefers it. There are moderators on both sides of the fence, the debate was strong.
I can see the appeal of having everyone under one tent. But I also cannot deny that it just isn't working. The constant bickering is absolutely counterproductive, and I've had members tell me in PM's that they're scared to post here because of a certain few who are vocal and combative. That makes me most displeased -- this should be a welcoming community, not a place where people are scared to post because someone will jump down their throat! :furious3:
Nobody minds honest, frank, fact-based discussion. But that's not what we're getting. What we're getting can only be described as a "bitchfest". So you have to evaluate what's happening based on what it *is*, not on what it *should be*.
And when it all comes down to it, is this community a community? Or is it a slapfest? And how do we recover its soul, if it has one?
We've tried to help it along by actively monitoring threads and squashing the incendiary ones before they can flame out of control. DVInfo-style. But some people are whining about that. Again we get the "free speech" and "censorship" and "sellout" whining. Well guess what, folks -- anarchy doesn't work. You have to have some semblance of order, or this place will devolve into what IndieClub became. And that would be a disaster.
Then the other day I went and checked in on a JVC-only site and found that someone has a four-page thread entitled "THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HVX200" and I thought -- okay, first of all there's not much "truth" in it, and second, how would he like it if I posted a "THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HD100" thread, and then third I thought -- "y'know what? He posted that thread on a JVC-only site. So -- let 'em. That's fine. If that's the kind of thing they want to talk about there, then they should be allowed to do so, unmolested." If he tried that here, or on the HVX forum on DVInfo, you can bet I'd correct every assertion he made, but I don't go on HD100 forums and say "your camera's crap, give it up" and I don't go into XLH1 forums and say "how can you guys stand this, the lens controls are ridiculous and unusable." What purpose would that serve? I will go in and answer questions on those forums if I know the answer, but I will do so neutrally and I won't go rag on their product nor will I try to "convert" them to "the one true light" (whatever that may be). And if they want to convince themselves that their chosen product is "the best", then hey, by all means, they should feel free to. It's a COMMUNITY, where they have a COMMON INTEREST, and I respect that. Heck, I encourage it.
I wouldn't go into another guy's church meeting and say "you're following a false prophet", nor would I go in a Scientologist church and scream "you're worshipping science fiction by a guy who wrote science fiction novels!". Even if I believed those things are true, and even if I believed that those people would be better off if they believed the same way I did. But there's no way I'd do that to them. I'd let them be. If they choose to worship those things, that's their choice and it's America and they should be free to do so unmolested.
That's why I think DVXUser was such a hit before it decided it needed to become all-inclusive. And why I think XLCinema could be a hit. And why sonyhdvinfo.com is doing well. And why DV.com is such a combative slapfest. And why DVInfo needs to be tightly moderated, and why no other site has anything nearly approaching the "family" feeling that DVXUser has (well, had).
I'd like to see all the products have a chance to develop a successful community like DVXUser was. If I got an H1, I'd like to think that I could visit XLCinema and find a like-minded community who would help me get the best from my product, and whom I could help. And I'd like to have a community where I could say "I HATE this lens, what other lenses have you used, I want one that performs at least as well as the HVX lens" without getting BITCHED AT in return. A place where people understand my frustration and can help, instead of them thinking "you're just a shill trying to rag on my product." Because with a helpful like-minded community you can do the former, but with a "big tent" philosophy you get the latter.
So -- for my part, I would prefer a return to a like-minded community where people respect where they are. You wouldn't go to someone else's house and pee in their pool, would you? And I'd like to see each platform enjoy such a community. And frankly, we've tried it under the "big tent" at DVXUser and -- it isn't working. It doesn't work, and it can't work. People don't feel "safe" and "among friends" anymore, now they always feel that there's a fight ready to brew.
So Jarred decided to axe all the other camera forums completely last night. Recommended that JVC users and Sony users could go to DVInfo if they wanted, and Canon users would want to check out the new spinoff XLCinema.com.
Obviously that didn't go over too well... it was abrupt, there was no advance notice, people came here and found that their forums had been cut off. Jarred has restored the forums now, but he's moved them to "off topic".
Users of other products are welcome here. Just please recognize that the backbone of this community is the common bond we share from using our three chosen tools: DVX, HVX, and soon Red. That's what this group is about. We're filmmakers and commercial producers and wedding shooters and infomercial shooters and event shooters who came together to form this community to talk about, share, ask and inform each other about the things that form our common bond: the tools that we use. The DVX, the HVX, and soon the Red. The DVXUser community is all about THE DVX USERS. The people who use the tool. Others are welcome here. Just please don't pee in the pool, don't talk politics and don't try to convince us of the superiority of some other tool, because that's not what we're here for.
We support DVInfo.net, we view it as our sister site. It's a fantastic site that does what we don't, and we do what they don't, and they've managed to get multiple camera communities to co-exist. And we support the nascent XLCinema.com for Canon users, started by longtime DVXUser members who have chosen a different platform. We hope they enjoy the same sense of community that DVXUser does, has, and will again.
The "Other Cameras" forum here will remain open as long as it peacefully coexists with the main focus of the site. If bickering and combativeness erupt again, then (like birds from the nest) Jarred may well usher the young ones to go find a nest of their own.
