Are P2 cards really necessary?

[flydef]

No offense Panasonic, but the whole P2 card thing is really un-necessary. People want to record directly to hard drives so that they can edit their footage. Why have a camera that you have to put a computer between to record to an external HDD? User-replaceable laptop HDD's in 'cartridges' would be much more desireable. P2 cards are like the 'ink cartridges' of Panasonics video business model. It would not have been technically difficult for them to put in a serial ATA HDD with SATA out and USB 2.0 out. I'd much rather have an internal HDD in the HVX-200 than a DV tape mechanism. HVX300 maybe?

Ooops, didn't know you would get so offended by the word scam.

"hard drive in camera versus removable solid state .. I don't think so. p2 gives you the best of both worlds.maximum reliability on the fly and tethered mass storage when stationary.
aloha
-A"

What worlds? What necessitates solid state? Laptop hard drives are pretty rugged. Are you really going to be subjecting your HVX to major G-forces? What use is a shot that is shaking so much it would destroy a HDD?

"Have you used a P2 system? Or are you just talking?"

That doesn't really address the issue, recording to P2 vs. recording direct to an internal HDD.
(I'm just talking)

"Thanks for such an enlightened message title. That really helps keep the mood constructive around here."

The reason I used that word is that it seems pretty clear P2 is designed for profit and not function. You could buy around 18 100GB drives for the price of one 8GB P2 Card. That's 30 hours vs 8 minutes, 1800 minutes vs 8. If you used 160GB drives that 1.8TB would be in 11 drives instead of 18. Nine HDD's on soon to be released 200GB 2.5" drives. P2 cards are 225 times more expensive than a HDD solution.

I'm not saying it's not convenient to have a 4GB card that pops in and out of the camera, I'm saying that it's not economically or fuctionally practical until solid state memory prices come down.

Also if the camera had eSATA out it would be far quicker to offload to an external TB mass storage system than from P2 through USB 2.0 or firewire.

PS Please don't close this thread because of this emoticon :furious3: all that punctuation is actually sweet words. hehe :violent5:

 

[Barry_Green]

There's a reason no major manufacturer (other than Ikegami) has released a hard-disk recording camera. Think about it. It hasn't happened yet.

External hard disk options are out there. You can use firestore or citidisk or quickstream or nNovia or all sorts of hard disk recorders.

Hard disks have many drawbacks. They're noisy, they draw power, they're not nearly as rugged, and if it fails you're in a world of hurt. Every major manufacturer has skipped hard disk as an option and gone either to solid state (Red, Panasonic, Infinity) or to optical disk (Sony). Infinity also has interchangeable cartridges from the Iomega system, but I'd rather use the CF slot than trust an Iomega revolving interchangeable drive.

Hard disks are cheap, yes. They're cheaper per gigabyte than solid state, and they have more gigabytes than solid state. Nobody's arguing that point.

But in the world of professional video, no manufacturer uses onboard interchangeable hard disks. There are many reasons.

You don't have to like solid state if you don't want to. You can get a firestore for the HVX or any of the HDV cameras if you want, and record on hard disks to your heart's content. But no manufacturer (other than Ikegami) is willing to put their camera's reputation on the line by relying on hard disks.

With the HVX the choice is yours. Choose whichever system you want.

As far as whether the P2 card is "economically or functionally practical", please specify that it may not be for the way you work, but for lots of us it has proven to not only be "practical", but also very profitable. There are many of us who have paid off our complete camera packages within the first week of owning them.

Try the P2 system. You might like it. Try hard disk recording. You might not be so enamored of it. I have every intention of getting a FireStore when it's out and proven, as I do see the appeal of it. But nobody will pry my P2 cards from my fingers, because (other than price per gig) they beat the living snot out of hard disk recording in every imaginable way.

I think an interchangeable hard disk product would probably sell like hotcakes, because obviously people want that capability. But I can easily understand why the manufacturers won't put their seal of approval on it.

 

[flydef]

For a Professional/Prosumer video camera, the reliability of HDD's is probably enough. We won't be filming the next moon landing with an HVX.
Your right, HDD's are noisy but that could most likely be muffled, and new drives are actually pretty quiet. Yes they draw more power than solid state, but lithium batteries are light. I wouldn't consider an Iomega disk for a second. Why would it be so hard to put the firestore inside the camera? It's so obious. Or why not blow us away Panasonic with an internal blue-ray recorder? Long term stable storage, low cost per GB. Am i dreaming here? People would go nuts over something like that.
50GB Dual Layer = 50min 1080 or 125min 720... nice.

"According to the Blu-ray Disc specification, 1x speed is defined as 36Mbps. However, as BD-ROM movies will require a 54Mbps data transfer rate the minimum speed we're expecting to see is 2x (72Mbps). "

3x would do it.

Okay so Blue-Ray is for a future generation of the camera, but did an internal HDD have to be?

PS Say something more about the money... yeah.. the money.. I like that.

 

[SergejIvanovits]

.... but for lots of us it has proven to not only be "practical", but also very profitable. There are many of us who have paid off our complete camera packages within the first week of owning them.

It can't be profitable just because the P2 system but because the camera is cheap.

Try the P2 system. You might like it. Try hard disk recording. You might not be so enamored of it.

The end of the day also you are delivering a HD to the customer. So it should be more profitable to be able to record to the HD directly.

The P2 system is first of all profitable in news production. Of course the tv-station has more than one 4Gig P2 card.

 

[booth]

The camera's made to work with P2 cards - when I purchased the HVX I didn't look at the standalone camera price as the price to pay for the camera. I added in the price of some cards and a P2 store (I already have a laptop with PCMCIA slots). It would have been like purchasing a car without wheels and expecting it to move otherwise.

For me that was the price I had to pay for a camera that was capable of doing what the HVX can. I dealt with it. If you can't deal with it, buy something else.

Though an external optical disk recorder would be nice at some point, I'm not desperate to have one just yet. Would be great for backup though.

 

[dregenthal]

For a Professional/Prosumer video camera, the reliability of HDD's is probably enough. We won't be filming the next moon landing with an HVX.

Yeah, probably not but the success or failure of the space program isn’t Panasonic’s responsibility . . . then again, it is interesting that NASA recently selected the HVX-200 over the competition, isn’t it? And while it's true, if you are only filming birthday parties it might not be the end of the world if your recording media (HD) crashed but most people investing in this kind of technology are doing more with with it than that and to them this would be unacceptable .

. . . Or why not blow us away Panasonic with an internal blue-ray recorder? Long term stable storage, low cost per GB. Am I dreaming here? People would go nuts over something like that. 50GB Dual Layer = 50min 1080 or 125min 720... nice.

Well, maybe you are dreaming . . . because I can’t tell what you are talking about, storage, recording time, price, or all of the above? Pretty much every working professional on this and other boards agree that tapes days are numbered. Blue-Ray is just now beginning to become available and certainly not in a form that is compatible with a handheld camera . . . perhaps you could helmet mount yours?

Thanks for the lesson in basic math, now how ‘bout this: P2 Store and 3 Four gigabyte cards. Up to 3 hours continuous recording time (720p/24pn), and available today. P2 technology, proven over the past few years. Why now? Simple . . . the chips which permit more attractive recording time have just become available (something else that Panasonic is not responsible for).

PS Say something more about the money... yeah.. the money.. I like that.

Yeah, I like the money too—glad you brought that up. Six months ago the camera was promised at “under 10k with (2) 8 gig P2 cards.” While you may have to be patient to receive yours, that promised was kept. Buyers have found that they can secure this package or substitute an appropriate number of 4 gig cards for the eights, and add the P2 Store and still be well under $10,000.

I’m not sure you have factored in what it will cost to miniaturize blue-ray and join it to the camera of your choice but you can shoot all the different formats, variable frame rates, and enjoy all the benefits of solid state reliability right here, right now, today with the HVX200, and I really like that . . .

If you’re wanting something that also brushes your teeth you may have to wait another 12-18 months for the HVX200A, in the mean time the rest of us will be out there discovering and demonstrating what this camera is capable of and, as Barry already pointed out, have paid for it in the process.

 

[smelni]

I am currently in production on a feature film and the p2 cards have been unbelievable. I am not tied to a hard drive - we swap every 10 minutes and have someone offloading - and we have NEVER been waiting for an empty card (we only have 2 4 gigs).

You CANNOT compare price per gig between HD and p2 - it just doesnt make sense - p2 is not long term storage period. HD is long term storage period - they are different but unfortunately both are called storage so people look at them as similar.

 

[Jeff Deveraux]

Hey guys... I did it!
I invented the ultimate camera! Introducing the DREAM-100. It frames the shot for you, adds whatever creative element you want into the shot, stores all 4k images on a removable Palm pilot (that will edit the footage for you), and all for under $1000.
It's the perfect gift for all your lazy friends!
Stay tuned for the DREAM-100B. This one will even find the work for you!

 

[Cut2muz]

Will the 100B come with the promised "no client input" modification?

Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com

 

[Jeff Deveraux]

Will the 100B come with the promised "no client input" modification?

Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com

Yes! in fact, using newly found alien technology it will transport them to a remote island in the Bermuda triangle where they will be distracted by a google of sex fiends of the opposite sex (or the same sex if need be; we're still working on that bug).

But wait, that's not all... If you pre order today we'll include, at no extra cost, the handy dandy "Mother Buffer". With this little gadget you can edit the thoughts of your mother-in-law even before she thinks them. It's simple... Just attach this unit into the expansion slot of the Dream- 100B (sorry, only available on B models), and when your mother-in-law speaks to you simply hit the record button. When she is finished, simply erase the clip and she has forgotten everything. We call it the "Mother Buffer", but it works on clients too.

Also, for you extra lazy customers... We also offer in our product line the "Hover sled". No more tripods to set-up or steadicams to balance. Heck, with this little friend you can even control it from your lawn chair using the radio controlled remote.

E-gad... It's getting late.

 

[flydef]

Your ultimate camera's noob filter must be broken.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Hey guys... I did it!
I invented the ultimate camera! Introducing the DREAM-100. It frames the shot for you, adds whatever creative element you want into the shot, stores all 4k images on a removable Palm pilot (that will edit the footage for you), and all for under $1000.
It's the perfect gift for all your lazy friends!
Stay tuned for the DREAM-100B. This one will even find the work for you!

Yes! in fact, using newly found alien technology it will transport them to a remote island in the Bermuda triangle where they will be distracted by a google of sex fiends of the opposite sex (or the same sex if need be; we're still working on that bug).

But wait, that's not all... If you pre order today we'll include, at no extra cost, the handy dandy "Mother Buffer". With this little gadget you can edit the thoughts of your mother-in-law even before she thinks them. It's simple... Just attach this unit into the expansion slot of the Dream- 100B (sorry, only available on B models), and when your mother-in-law speaks to you simply hit the record button. When she is finished, simply erase the clip and she has forgotten everything. We call it the "Mother Buffer", but it works on clients too.

Also, for you extra lazy customers... We also offer in our product line the "Hover sled". No more tripods to set-up or steadicams to balance. Heck, with this little friend you can even control it from your lawn chair using the radio controlled remote.

E-gad... It's getting late.

Yaaaa......


But what about discounts!?!?!?!?


What's your best price!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Justyn]

hard drives CRASH. I can speak from recent experience. P2 is the cat's PJ's. Love it.. and don't fear it. Pet it, they will be your friend.