Storyboards vs. Shot list

Storyboards vs. overheads vs. shot lists... the answer is all of the above... if you have the time to prepare. Each provides different elements of information. In the end, if you prepare all of these things, you're shoot will go much smoother and faster.

Storyboards help describe composition, overheads show positioning and direction, and the shot list (the way I use it) references the boards and overheads, organizing them into a shooting sequence that is optimized. You'll end up shooting a bit out of sequence, but you'll never move the camera to the same place twice, and all the possible lighting and staging work that goes along with it. It's a pleasant experience.
 
yea lets not argue that Story borards are obsolete or anythting.... or one method is bettrer than another. thats just rediculous.
 
I'm leaning toward the "both" method, probably as much for my own benefit as for the DP's. Storyboarding forces me to really think through the scene and visualize each shot and how the scene unfolds.
 
I couldn't imagine going into a shoot without a shot list. It's your task list for the day. Storyboards serve an entirely different purpose.

EDIT: I clarified my language, because I think some people thought I was dismissing storyboards. I was not.
 
On the Sin City DVD, there’s some footage of Robert Rodriguez talking to Quentin Tarantino on the day Quentin directed his scene. Quentin said something about having prepared a shot list and Robert responded that Quentin was making him look bad because he (Robert) never bothered to prepare. Quentin responded that he usually didn’t bother to do so either, but since he was a guest director on Robert’s movie, he felt he should be more organized than normal. I’m not sure how much of that is just B.S. banter, but it surprised me a little bit. I think being organized is quite important, but I do think it’s important to work on the blocking with the actors on the day and not stick to storyboards simply because you’ve already drawn them.

I was planning to do a lot of storyboards for my current project, but since I’ll be working with amateur actors, I’m going to design the blocking with the actors in rehearsal to make them more comfortable. There will be exceptions, of course, but I’m going to do fewer boards and more shot lists. I’m not as confident as Tarantino and Rodriguez to do without the preparation.

Cheers,

Josh
 
The Coen brothers did some great storyboarding for Blood Simple. It gave them the ability to visualize what they were looking for and capture it on film, especially the dragging shovel/approaching truck scene and the shafts of light through bullet holes scene.
 
Josh_Boelter said:
...Quentin said something about having prepared a shot list and Robert responded that Quentin was making him look bad because he (Robert) never bothered to prepare. Quentin responded that he usually didn’t bother to do so either, but since he was a guest director on Robert’s movie, he felt he should be more organized than normal. I’m not sure how much of that is just B.S. banter, but it surprised me a little bit. I....
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Hey Josh.

I think part of that might be lot's aof experience talking -- several very visual features on both thier parts.

I was a theatre director for 10yrs with 35 plays under my belt before prettymuch hanging that hat up to do this. There were detailed tools we learned in graduate school such as making a detailed prompt book and answering a slew of questions to help us prepare: Dramatic action, Character Arc, Relationships, Thematic Material, but after a while I spent less time doing that kind of paperwork - I still spent as much time with the play before rehearsal, but much that much of that had become intuitive. Same was true with big name directors that would speak to us in seminar. Occasionaly they would bring their prompt books (rehearsal scripts) to class and on more that one occasion the books were blank -- and these were people that were working at lincoln center, broadway, major opera houses, etc.

Anyway - I think that with talents such as Rodriguez and Tarantino who have such experience, they are probably story boarding in their heads and making shot lists on the fly ... of course you do all the shots with "x" lens in setup "a" before moving to "y" lens in setup "b", etc. They also have extensive support by people who also have lot sof experience, so even if they aren't thinking about the most time effective sequence to get all the shots in, they damn sure have and A.D. who is.

Although you may be right and the could have just been B.S.ing :laugh:
 
I've heard Rodriguez say on several occasions that he doesn't storyboard. And frankly, it's clear from his movies, which - with the exception of his first one - are universally terrible.

The Coens have said that storyboarding very strictly is one reason their movies get made at all. Because everything is worked out so well ahead of time, producers know they will not waste time and money.
 
I think you're right, Jack, that going without storyboards or shot lists is something Rodriguez and Tarantino can do with experience. They probably have shot lists in their heads instinctively at this point. I remember Rodriguez used to do storyboards. He did video storyboards for some scenes in Once Upon a Time in Mexico (this was on the DVD).

I'll definitely prepare shot lists and I'll also do storyboards for some shots, diagrams for some, and still photos for others.
 
blocking is the primary way for me, keeps things in memory in a 3d way.

on robert...come on now. sin city was kick ass. Robert's a very commercial director -- spy kids etc--
ans made miramax gazillions! i went to see Harvey weinstein and quentin talk at the opening of the miramax's anniversity @ the MOMA. Harvey noted very clearly that quentin and Robert kept miramax going and was so grateful to them.
 
i agree with desperate comfort about rodriguez. he's "Da Man" among most indie types because of his book, but his movies pretty much rot.
 
I have an opion about Rodriguez but I won't share it cuz the thread's getting off topic.

Point it it's one thing for a director whose done several largish features to work without story boards or shot lists and another thing for ... well, me or other inexperienced filmmakers.

Whether you think Rodriguz sucks or Tarintino is hit and miss or whatever ... both guys can get through a day of shooting on schedule for the most part and not look like an asshat because they didn't get the shots they needed or waiste tons of time because they had to go back and get a shot that should have been done when all of the other shots of "X" set up were done ... or perhaps even worse - stand around and look confused scratching their heads while they look at the script and figure out what to get next.
 
hmmm... the biggest lesson I learned from doing all three, is that there is an important period of clarity and preperation that goes on in my head prior to arriving on set. I think different people, based on their visual ability, memory, style, etc... will have different approaches, but planning to be able to communicate what you want, and subsequently knowing what you want, are the two most important things to bring to the set. Even if you are going to do an improv style where the actors will create most of the scene that day, you still have to have a good idea of what you want from their improv and how to cover it.

me personally. after trying and trying, i realized that i draw so badly that my stick figures look lame and confusing. sometimes i recreate a location roughly in maya, so i can make a camera and play with focal lengths and shot ideas, but i never show that to the crew. i find a good clean overhead, made in illustrator, works the best from me, along with a shot list, and good descriptions...

...then i throw it all out the door anyway :) but it gives me a starting point!
 
I think storyboards are important if you're doing a scene with something really expensive or a one-time-only kind of effect, like a car crash or something.

But other than that, I think they're kind of a waste of time. What happens is that you fall in love with your storyboards and waste a lot of time trying to make everything match them, whereas if you're not married to your storyboards you're a lot more open to finding cool shots once you get to the location.

A detailed shot list is really important though in order to properly plan out your schedule for each day of production. But it still gives you room to explore. For example, if your shot list for a certain location says "Wide shot," you'll find that there are many ways to frame the wide shot when you see the location rather than limiting yourself to what you've already drawn in the storyboards.

The other good use for storyboards is for promotional purposes. That is, if an investor or someone important wants to know what a scene will look like in advance. But then when you actually get around to shooting the scene, you can just scrap them.
 
What everybody else said.

BOTH.

My personal experience though is that usually, a storyboard is more useful if you have someone else handling D.P. duties b/c you can just show him storyboards instead of having to describe the shot to him (which usually takes so much work, you'll end up just framing the shot yourself oftentimes).

The shotlist is there to remind you and the D.P. constantly what you need to do while you are there shooting.

That being said, I usually always do both.

Personally, I was never a great drawer so my storyboards are literally stick figures. Seriously. No matter how rudimentary you think your storyboards are, mines are worse. It's usually just a frame with stick figures standing in as my characters, usually no background unless it's esstential to the shot, and only the props that directly interact with the character such as a desk or chair.

But you know what? I prefer it that way. Because I usually find, when you are in the location on the day shooting, there will be things you never expected (the location, lighting limitations, actor heights, etc) that totally make your storyboards... well, not useless, but inadequate to suit your needs on set. So it's just a rough guide. So why spend more than 5 seconds on a frame that will probably change during production? (and yes, I usually draw a stick figure frame in 5 seconds, just to show you how rudimentary it is)

If anything, I find that the act of storyboard helps me take my story off the script and into the realm of visual storytelling. Also, since I choose to use simplistic stick figures for my drawings, I usually storyboard the whole movie out SHOT FOR SHOT, EDIT FOR EDIT. Most people who storyboard (and can draw well) usually devote their time only on key select shots they know they want to look a certain way but since I can draw 20 frames in the time it takes them to draw 1, I use this opportunity to basically direct my film before I direct it. Closer to an animatic than a storyboard (granted, an animatic that doesn't move). This also helps me figure out editing before I edit.

The next thing I do now is determine a shotlist. Now this is how I do things. I first number all my storyboards from 1 to whatever. I then determine my shotlist based on my storyboards (e.g. C.U. on Tyler) and label them 1 to whatever. Now, to allow me to cross refrence quickly between the two, I find out all the shots on the storyboard that can be used from the same setup from the shotlist. For example, if in my storyboard I had two parts of the same scene where I go back to a C.U. on Tyler, storyboard number 34 and 43 for example, then on the shotlist, at the end I'll put in paranthesis 34 and 43. e.g.

4) C.U. on Tyler (34, 43)

THEN, on the storyboard, on frame 34 and 43, I draw a line under them and put the number 4, indicating which shotlist number it is. That way, at any given time when I am looking at one or the other, I can quickly reference the other. This also helps you plan your shooting days more effieciently because you can figure out which shots you can shot back to back in a single set up. This makes it hell for the actors because that means they'll be shooting a lot of stuff out of sequence but hey, they're only actors. :-)

That doesn't mean you should be LOCKED into whatever is on page as things inevitably change as you are shooting and editing, and you should allow these changes to happen as you don't want to be to locked down in preplanning, but it definately helps me A) get through the day faster, getting the shots I know I need and B) makes me look more prepared to my actors and crew.

Now I know it seems like a lot of work, but here's how I break it down. During preproduction, you have all the time in the world. Yeah yeah, I know you got work and school and whatever, but you can always MAKE TIME. That's when you have the opportunity to figure things out. When you are shooting, when production has started, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME. Time is constantly running out.

I have helped out on a lot of other people's shoots and one thing I find happening a lot is that these guys who haven't spent the time seriously preplanning, and figuring they could just "wing it" on the set waste an incredible amount of time figuring out what to do, and it makes you look bad in front of everyone and you do not want people doubting your aptitude as a director. What usually happens is that they get less than 10% of the shots they thought they were gonna get that day because they don't realize the one true rule about production: Everything takes at least 3 times longer to do than you thought it would.

I don't know what it is, but for me and everyone I've talked to, when you are a director and you are actually on set, for some reason your IQ drops 50 points. Seriously. You suddenly become this blob of flesh that just does, "DURRRRH!" and start panicking because everyone is asking you questions. The D.P. asks how you want the shot. The audio guy asks where to point the mike. The actors ask how they want the scene. Everyone is bombarding you with questions. You do NOT have time to find your shots as you're shooting. At least with the storyboard/shotlist combo, I could go back to it, look quickly at what I need, and start from there.

btw, here's a pic of what a storyboard of mine looks like. Don't laugh.

storyboards.jpg
 
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i use a shot list. and since i am a miserable drawer i feel like my storyboards would do me absolutely 0 good.

so therefore, i normally visualize each scene in my script and i try to write out in detail the exact shot i want. it works for me, but my advice would be to try out both and see which one works the best FOR YOU.

i have tried everything and just feel like my storyboards do nothing for me, whereas my detailed shot list works a lot better for me.
 
I use both .... most of my sb's are photographic. But apart from the DP (cant afford one anyway :P ) I think storyboards also give actors a great feel of how the scene will play out as in your vision, and have a pretty good understanding of everything. Well here in Japan where language is also a barrier its a must.
 
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