dialogue scenes for indy film

S

sodotoguwangus

Well-known member
The whole concept of how to record audio for dialogue scenes has plagued me for as long as I can remember. Which is why all of my short-films up to this point have had no dialogue.

Recently, however, I have decided to make a feature. And it would be pretty boring (to say the least) to watch a feature-length film without dialogue.

It's time for me to learn about sound.

More specifically -- dialogue.

I have no trouble understanding how to capture live sound, like the sound in a stage play or sporting event, but when it comes to dramatic, film-style dialogue scenes, I'm at a complete loss.

I suppose part of the reason has to do with the many camera angles, cut-aways, close-ups, etc.

I mean, after shooting multiple camera angles and chopping everything up in post, how do I make sure all the dialogue sinks perfectly in the final finished film?

I have never been able to understand how filmmakers do it. It just blows my mind. If anyone can post a simple solution/tutorial/workflow, or anything that will shed light on my dilemma, I will be eternally grateful.
 
Film dialogue is complex. First off, you need to figure out how much (if any) of a budget you have for ADR (Automated Dialoge Replacement, aka Looping) and if you want to plan to do that. Other things you'll need to figure out is if you're going to be recording to an external audio device. Personally, I've always opted for that if it's available (M-Audio Compact Flash field recorders are under 500bucks, Edirol ones are in the same range) in addition to dropping audio straight into the camera (if available, depending on the cam).

You can wire your actors/actresses with concealed wireless/wired lavaliers and either keep them in discreet channels (if available) or premix them with a field mixer into your recording device, you can catch them with a shotgun mic overhead (I like the AT 4073), you can use the camera top directional stereo mic (if it has one) and get extra coverage.

If you use an external recorder, use a slate (will be massively important when syncing dailies later). If you're recording straight into the camera, it still might be good to use a slate (all that scene info and format/camera stuff is handy in the post phase).... the slate arm clacking against the body is the visual cue... the sound of it is the audio cue. You bring them together, and everything in that scene is in sync, officially.

Also, another note for good sounding audio - make sure you get room tone/location tone for backfilling (that means, basically, getting an uniterupted natural recording in each of your locations for at least a minute with as few uncontrolled sounds like birds or airplanes as possible - you'll use this later to help create natural sounding dialogue where before your sound recording may sound too "direct").

Even after this there's variables (post prod. considerations, like, for instance making sure your audio post person/team knows what framerate/sample rate you are working at to assure consistency, and you providing them with a solid file for editing to, etc.).

It's a lot to think about, but the weakest part of most indy films is the audio.

Hope this helps.
 
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Jared,

You have written a thoughful response, but it contains errors that could lead to confusion.

First, the 4073 (actually 4073a) comes from Audio Technica, not Sennheiser. Second, about the only useful audio you get from the on-board camera mic is a scratch track for dailies and for post to synch to. Third, while it is nice to let the audio editor know what the frame and sample rate are, it is actually the mixer/recordist that you need to coordinate with. And it is truly more of a coordination with post. Just because your framerate on the camera is 24P, it does not automatically follow that the audio recording framerate should be the same. As a matter of fact, sound mixers I respect recommend a frame rate of 29.97 ND when recoding double system (with tc) and a DVX100x.

And, really the best recommendation for this poster is to first read the stickied posts here and then buy Jay Rose's book on great audio for digital video.

Phil
 
And, really the best recommendation for this poster is to first read the stickied posts here and then buy Jay Rose's book on great audio for digital video.

Phil
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another one - to find the founds for sound person so you can direct without headache
 
phil,

hehe, edited regarding the senn/at confusion (I use an mkh70 and 4073 and apparently was having a der moment).

Regarding "in camera" audio using the onboard mic, my point was just if you have it, use it all... just incase.

Also, really quick - my point about communicating with the editor was a post related note (based on so many projects that I've been handed no documentation whatsoever, hehe).

Thanks for pointing out those notes to me, always looking for thoughts and ideas and corrections where necessary. I've been lurking on here for a while, but I'm looking forward to further discussions with all of you audio savvy folks!
 
Thanks and welcome Jared. Sorry, I've been in a bad mood the last couple of days and am taking it out on poor DVXuser posters. I've vowed to myself to only post positive, helpful, non-sarcastic comments moving forward.
In other words, if I can't say something nice and helpful, say nothing at all.

Do you find you use your 70 much? There was a good discussion recently on long-gun usage (mostly talking about 816's) and the general conclusion was that they are rarely being used now (but when they're needed people love the fact that they have one in their "bag".)
;-)

Phil
 
All the replys have been about the equipment, when I think your question is really about the excecution.

Basically you have to have a rough idea of what the scene will be edited like in post to know what sound you need to record for each camera angle.

For example say a scene has two people having a conversation. One fairly standard way of shooting the scene will be a minimum of 3 camera angles.
Firstly the wide master: used to establish the scene, one wide two-shot.
The other two camera angles are mid-shots of each characters face (on the line of action)

the sound for the Master can just be boomed from edge of frame, catching each characters lines. the mid-shots are boomed for only the individual characters.

Editing with this situation is fine in theory, but the problem is that characters sometimes speak at the same time, limiting your choices in post for cut-points.
you could get a character to say only their lines on their mid-shot, or cut to the wide master, but usually these actors like to bounce off their co-star.

For the sound to cut together better, make sure that if there is any ambient noise in the background, that it is there for both mid-shots, and take a wildtrack of the noise for insurance.

things get tricky with three and more characters, and more than one camera, but just take the time to work out if the sound you are taking, will cut together.
 
I would say pick up a book on editng (maybe Walter Murch's Blink of an Eye) but Scooby laid it out pretty concisely.

The trick for both picture and sound is consistency. Consistency of audio (same bg, same levels, etc) and for picture, consistency of blocking and delivery. The editor's two best friends on set are the sound mixer and the script supervisor who's job it is to make sure these things are monitored.

That is another first timer's pitfall. They hear how someone like Robin Williams ad-libs so many lines and allow their talent to constantly go off-script. If you know how you are going to cut it then it can work but to change things in the middle getting a scene can often lead to giant headaches in the editing room.

Consistency is the key.
 
ptalsky said:
Thanks and welcome Jared. Sorry, I've been in a bad mood the last couple of days and am taking it out on poor DVXuser posters. I've vowed to myself to only post positive, helpful, non-sarcastic comments moving forward.
In other words, if I can't say something nice and helpful, say nothing at all.

Do you find you use your 70 much? There was a good discussion recently on long-gun usage (mostly talking about 816's) and the general conclusion was that they are rarely being used now (but when they're needed people love the fact that they have one in their "bag".)
;-)

Phil
Click to expand...

It's cool, no problem... I get that way at times too. We can all strive to be positive! Yeah!

The MKH70 is a tricky thing... I like it for recording ADR, actually... but in the field the 4073 is usually what I prefer to use. Yeah, at the price it's a luxury item, I think... plus it's so damn huge.
 
Just a quick question on this topic, it seems to me that most indie film makers don't use ADR when I see (or hear lol) an obvious advantage to using it. Why isn't it used more often? I'm a somewhat aspiring film maker and poor sounds bothers me as much as poor light to good directors.

Is there some technically difficult reason for not using ADR, or is it a hassle to get actors indoors to record their lines over (lots of groans and moans)?
 
It is time consuming, expensive, you get worse performances, and more often then not it sounds like crap where you can hear it just as clear as when they dub over swears on TV. And of course, actors (save maybe Marlen Brando) hate it.

There is a common misconception that someone on the internet must have gotten started when someone said something about a film that used 80% ADR. Now that is being misquoted as, "80% of films are ADR." Certainly most films use some amount of ADR but unless it is an action or F/X laden picture where getting location sound was not possible, ADR is kept to a minimum.

For an aspiring filmmaker I highly recommend you do a scene with ADR before you embark on your first picture. Get the ADR as best as you can and decide if you are comfortable with the quality and time it takes. Don't cheap out because it is an experiment, learn what it takes to get it done well. With this knowledge hopefully more first time directors will listen more to their sound guy on set (and include him on the locations scouts).

Good luck
 
douglasedward said:
Is there some technically difficult reason for not using ADR, or is it a hassle to get actors indoors to record their lines over (lots of groans and moans)?
Click to expand...
yes it calls - i have no money left - the grate dp told me we are shooting avalible light - he just forget to explain it will be all the avalible light in the rentimg house .

the **** sound on independent films is usially people dont understand the costs involved in making the film so they finish the movie out of budget to quality sound mix and ability for matketing .
usially when the film is finished few months after shooting ( maybe more ) they cant find the acters or cant pay them to come make the adr .
very common story which leaves the soundtrack as it is .
 
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