Number of DVX-100's in the world?

Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

I am really curious as to why Panasonic wouldn't publish or announce these numbers.  It's very common in say the auto industry, and I know computer companies like Apple openly announce their numbers.  I would think a publicly held corporation like Panasonic would have to, or at least be inclined to announce those numbers.  Any thoughts?  Insights?
 
As for 30-40% of the prosumer market I would be shocked.  I recently started working for a division of the largest communications firm in the world and their in-house production facility was completely unaware of the DVX100.  They actually were highly uneducated on 24P.  They found out I was shooting something on 24P and they ran in shouting STOP!! we have to cut this on our AVID!!!  I introduced it to them and they were like "REALLY".  They live and die by DVCAM and BETA SP and DBETA.  HUGE Sony fans.  Sony has a very big chunk of this market, the same is probably true in news gathering as well.
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Apple published ipod shipped, why would DVX100 PM lose her job if she told? Pros don't like these camera because of the look. You can't buy them at bestbuys, I bet most people here mail ordered the camera. It's not a casual buy. How many users does dvxuser.com have? I guess if Berry is right and Panasonic release a DVCPROHD then its a big market because they are killing their $50000 cams. I think its going to be a mpg cam with 24p.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

DVXUser.com has nearly 4,400 registered members. I don't know how many unregistered visitors there are, but I'm sure it's a lot.

If it's true as Bill said, that there are 60,000 DVX's worldwide, that means this forum has almost 8% of them? That's huge.

Panasonic has already announced that they will release a prosumer DVCPRO-HD camera. As far as "killing their $50,000 cams" -- I think that's just completely not an accurate assessment of the situation. I just don't think that the $50,000 customer is looking for a $3,000 palmcorder, nor that they would find it an appropriate or suitable substitution. Vokswagen makes a $20,000 Jetta (or whatever their bottom-of-the-line is) and also a $350,000 Maybach. People shopping for the Jetta won't be looking for the Maybach, and people shopping for the Maybach aren't going to say "well, hold on a minute, let's buy this Jetta and save ourselves $330,000." The market just doesn't work that way. There are things that the $65,000 cameras can do that the $3500 cameras can't -- things like remote camera control, that mean many buyers cannot use the cheaper camera for their purposes even if they wanted to.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

As long as the CCDs are 1/3'' the limitations in dynamic range, low light ability, etc. will seperate prosumer from professional.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=nws;num=1104515305;start=15#21 date=01/12/05 at 18:14:42]DVXUser.com has nearly 4,400 registered members. I don't know how many unregistered visitors there are, but I'm sure it's a lot.

If it's true as Bill said, that there are 60,000 DVX's worldwide, that means this forum has almost 8% of them? That's huge.

Panasonic has already announced that they will release a prosumer DVCPRO-HD camera. As far as "killing their $50,000 cams" -- I think that's just completely not an accurate assessment of the situation. I just don't think that the $50,000 customer is looking for a $3,000 palmcorder, nor that they would find it an appropriate or suitable substitution. Vokswagen makes a $20,000 Jetta (or whatever their bottom-of-the-line is) and also a $350,000 Maybach. People shopping for the Jetta won't be looking for the Maybach, and people shopping for the Maybach aren't going to say "well, hold on a minute, let's buy this Jetta and save ourselves $330,000." The market just doesn't work that way. There are things that the $65,000 cameras can do that the $3500 cameras can't -- things like remote camera control, that mean many buyers cannot use the cheaper camera for their purposes even if they wanted to.[/quote]


When is Panasonic realeasing this prosumer DVCPRO-HD camera?

Thanks
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

I just don't think that the $50,000 customer is looking for a $3,000 palmcorder
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true, but aren't going to say $50,000, come on, ... maybe $20000.

The thing about expensive thing is their resale, the intrinsic value, Look at a Jackson Polock painting, $7,000,000? for splattered paint? Well, yes, cause, if I don't like you can unload it. A cautionary tale: silicon graphics, they own a market, sold high-end workstations $70,000. Now?? well you can buy them on ebay for $300. digital camera, like computers get their value from the technology and know you just made the technology a lot cheaper, guess what, the value of those high-end cameras just went down. Look at want apple did with the new ipod, cost only $99 but the thing has no display, why?...can you say mini.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

Ettubaby said:

Apple published ipod shipped, why would DVX100 PM lose her job if she told?
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I don't wish to be in a position that would put my company in a position of defense. It is a marketing issue and if I said then the other companys that read this board would be able to just how little or how badly we have hurt their market share. Frankly, even if it was a position of losing my job, which it really isn't, there is no way I would want to give that information to my competiton. Really!

I guess if Berry is right and Panasonic release a DVCPROHD then its a big market because they are killing their $50000 cams. I think its going to be a mpg cam with 24p.
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Trust me there is no way that a 1/3" DVCPROHD camcorder is even going to influence the sales of the Varicam. People prognosticated that the SDX would ruin the Varicam, it didn't. People said the DVX would hur the SDX sales, it didn't. All that happens is that people start to understand how these work together and where one works better. It will be a DVCPROHD product, we may have an HDV camera later if the format still looks viable.

Best,

Jan
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

The thing about expensive thing is their resale, the intrinsic value,
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In many ways, for many things, that may be true.  But for video cameras?  I think that's the totally wrong angle to take.  You buy these tools in order to do a certain job, and you justify your business decision based on cost/benefit analysis.

I think that's what's driving some people to distraction about "having to hop on the HDV bandwagon" and "futureproofing" and stuff like that.  Here's the way I look at it: the VX1000 served me well for four years.  The PD150 and VX2000 did so for about 3 years.  So far the DVX has gotten two good years of service, and I expect at least another.  When something substantially different comes along which makes it possible for me to a) charge more for my services, or b) get jobs that I wouldn't have gotten without it, I'll buy it.

Resale value is completely irrelevant in this business.  I have a DVX that is/was ostensibly worth about $3,000.  This month alone I did a corporate video shoot with a five-figure budget that will yield enough net profit to pay for the camera outright. I have another one scheduled toward the later part of this month that will net enough that I could pay for it again.  And then I have a convention shoot at the end of this month that I wouldn't have gotten if I didn't have this camera.  It's six days, at $850 per day = about $5,000, which is all profit since the equipment is all owned outright and fully depreciated and amortized.

At any point, any one of these small jobs could pay for the DVX outright.  What price could I sell the DVX for?  I really don't care, because I'm not going to sell it, I need it to do these jobs.  It was a bargain, actually a steal, at $3400.  It's probably paid for itself at least 20x over.

So the way I look at it is, if I needed a $3700 FX1 in order to land one of these jobs, for a client who demanded HD, I'd just buy the FX1 and charge it against the job profits.  Simple business decision.  If I needed a $5,000 Z1 to land one of these jobs, I'd think a little about whether having a Z1 would help me land future jobs... if so, I'd bite the bullet and buy it.  If I needed a $75,000 VariCam to land one of these jobs, I wouldn't take the job -- no sense buying a $75,000 camera to land a $5,000 job.  If, however, I was doing live concerts for MTV once a week at one of the Vegas hotels, and they wanted VariCam footage, and would pay $15,000 per concert, and it was a year-long contract, I'd buy the VariCam no problem.  And I'd never question or worry about resale value on them, because a) that's not how you do it in this biz, and b) resale value on technology items plummets daily, so what's the point?

They're tools to do the job.  I don't consider the resale value of my hammer and screwdriver, nor do I worry about the resale value of these cameras.  You get what you need in order to do the work that you do, and you pay what it takes to get it.  For the right project, a VariCam could be an absolute steal at $75,000, if you have enough business to justify it.  And if three weeks after you buy it the price of the VariCam drops to $5,000 -- well, you whine a little, but so what?  You still bought it based on the work you had in front of you, ran the numbers and it made sense, and you'll continue to make the money you needed from it.

If someone's buying something like this on spec, then that's a whole different game.  I personally think that would be nuts to do, but hey, different strokes for different folks.  
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

You missed my point about value. People buy on value, you brought it up with FX1 price drop. You would feel bad if you bought it at $3700 when you can now get it for $3300? I know people in your situation, you have steady gigs. I know people who get new gear for every job, which they keep. The money you are making is not the camera paying for itself, its you being compensated for your skills and work, I assume you live off that money? The carpenter can bless his $17 hammer but its his arm that earn his keep. This guy I'm working with, got his picture show at sundance done with a very cheap JVC miniDV, it was him all him.

Berry, you see you live in a niche market - independent videographer, looks like you're doing very well, I assume when you charge your clients, the equip cost are factored in. Before, those corporate video cost a lot more. A lot of work is been outsourced, it rampant here in NYC. For the companies its great, no health benefits to paid out, remove the overhead, its cheaper. The CNN, Fox, everyone is doing it. It will kill the career people in this field. I bet you have here people were once employed doing this professionally who now have to hustle for work, pay there own health, earn less, if you're single its probably fine, but a family?
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

Well, this isn't all I do, and I don't keep all the money from these gigs. On the last corporate video, 70% went out to others. They hire me, I hire them, it all ends up going around and we all do okay. Nobody works for free/cheap unless it's not for a client, unless it's a spec job.

I acknowledge there are people out there buying these cameras with no idea what they're going to do with 'em, etc. But those aren't the people who would ever be entertaining an SDX or Varicam purchase! My point was all about the difference in market, and why a cheap little DVCPRO-HD camera will likely have no effect on the Varicam or CineAlta purchaser, just like it will have no effect on the SDX or DSR500 purchaser. You buy the tools for the jobs you're doing. Different jobs demand different tools. If I was being hired for a $100,000 commercial and I showed up on the set with a DVX, I'd get laughed out of the place and lose the job.

I'm saying that these are business tools, and for this type of business, "value" and "low price" aren't really important factors. I mean, sure, yes everyone wants a "deal" and would love to have lower-priced equipment, but for the most part you don't hem and haw over it, you run the numbers, you decide what you need, you get it and you move on. There is no "resale" consideration going on. Of course we'd all like to resell our equipment when we're done using it, and get the best price for it, but... I mean, it's almost not even something you worry about. And if you are worried about it, that's when you lease equipment, so your costs are contained and you know what you're in for and what you can get out for.

The only thing I was discussing was how video people make decisions on what camera to buy. And at the $75,000 or $100,000 level, those decisions are even more based on numbers-in and numbers-out than what I described.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

By the way, I sold a VX2000 before purchasing the DVX, got 2 Gs for it, after own it for 3 years, not bad.

If I was being hired for a $100,000 commercial and I showed up on the set with a DVX, I'd get laughed out of the place and lose the job.
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very true, but will whomever put up the $100Gs if they can get the same quality for much less? It brought up SGI because in the 90s I worked with them, It was inconceivable to replace them with PCs, there was a definite snub factor, SGIs were prestigious machines, but you know what they learned to live with much cheaper dull...I mean dell machines. If it had been their choice SGI would still be going, but with competition, the cost difference they were forced to adjust. I read a quote, I don't know if it was here but it was about film snubs eating crow when they see what HD can do...
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

[quote author=ettubaby link=board=nws;num=1104515305;start=15#29 date=01/12/05 at 21:25:00]very true, but will whomever put up the $100Gs if they can get the same quality for much less? [/quote]

Coming from an agency world where $100k is dirt cheap for a spot I can say that their is perceived value in spending a set amount of money. This exists on the client side and agency side. People see value and find peace of mind in paying the big bucks. Furthermore, there are certain price points to observe. I actually see little difference between $30k spots and say a $100k spot, but I see a lot of difference between what's possible in a $100k spot and say half a million. I also know that in many markets you can shoot a $30k spot on a CineAlta. So that puts the price point for DVX shot commercials quite low relatively speaking.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

as a newbie to the professional market, one who is still, struggling with finding a balance between what to charge and the time effectively put into a job, how important do you feel the "impressive" camera is? alot of people see my DVX and aren't impressed, they see footage their Jaws drop.

You talk about clientel needing a certain capability for a job. have anyof you ever been turned down for the unimpressive look of the DVX? i only worry cause Panasonic relaeased that shoulder mount 1/3" cam, with the advertisisng claim of "looking professional".

im just worried, and i am graduating soon, and i need to shake a leg into the work force.

Thanks guys
-Timur
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

Yes, I've had jobs where the client has said "no" just because of the way the DVX looks.  When they say "no", then we get a different camera: DSR570, DSR390, whatever fits their requirements.

I've also had at least twice where they've said "this job has got to be film" and I said "have you seen the DVX footage?"  and they said "no, I don't have to, I know we need film".  So I show them the footage.  Both jobs ended up choosing to shoot on the DVX.  I mean, it doesn't matter to me, I've got film cameras too, but for the convenience and cost factor... it's a no-brainer.

However, if you want to do wedding or event videos, where someone's hiring a camera and expecting a CAMERA, the DVX is going to be at a disadvantage.  And if you're on a $30,000+ spot, you shouldn't be shooting that on a $150/day camera.  So whether a DVX will help or hurt your chances to get video jobs depends on what kind of video jobs you're trying to get.
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

do you mean you don't recommand the dvx for wedding or event videographers?
 
Re: Number of DVX-100's in the world?

No, not necessarily... I'm saying that those type of clients may want to see more "camera" when they're shelling out the dough. And they may think someone is more of a "pro" if they have the bigger shoulder-mount camera. It's perception, what the client believes is what matters, and the XL2 looks less like a consumer camera, and more like a broadcast camera, than a DVX does.

As far as the actual footage, obviously they'll be comparable, except for the XL2's longer reach and better OIS. If one was strictly doing events or weddings or stuff like that, the XL2 may be the better choice. Doesn't mean the DVX can't do it just fine, but the XL2 does have a couple of advantages for those types of jobs.
 
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