Coco Bermudez
New member
gnasr said:
Gnasr:
Anything absolutely new that we have not heard of or touched upon on this thread? Any rep touched on some of the key points that would be new to us and not reported on the press release?
DVX 100 B "Pict enhancements + lower cost" ?
- Thread starter Kelly Olsen
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Gnasr:
Anything absolutely new that we have not heard of or touched upon on this thread? Any rep touched on some of the key points that would be new to us and not reported on the press release?
Barry_Green
Moderator
I didn't mean that -- I meant that Mikko's report mentioned a lot more new features than the list that you posted.Super8 said:
Super 8,
I didn't notice anything different from what Mikko has posted.
About picture enhancements, I did play with it at a very well lit place, and didn't have a 100a to make a side by side comparison, but the image it produced looked pretty much the same to me, that's why I just bought another 100a myself.
I didn't notice anything different from what Mikko has posted.
About picture enhancements, I did play with it at a very well lit place, and didn't have a 100a to make a side by side comparison, but the image it produced looked pretty much the same to me, that's why I just bought another 100a myself.
Super8 (and everyone else), here is the list of all the features from the IBC thread:
The only thing that tickles my fancy is the lower lowlight noise in dark areas. Dunno if it'll be worth it.
mikkowilson said:****DVX100B - European version
I got a chance to quiz Jan (along with Adam Wilt.. you may have read some of his stuff) about the DVX100B and how it differes from the DVX100A ( I wont' discuss difference to the DVX100, as those can be derrived from existing information.
Heres's the list:
*Some physical modifications, includeing a recessed Picture/scene mode wheel, so you can't accidently bump it.
*Increased travel on the LCD screen.. it bends forward a little ways too.. just like on the HVX.
*The pannel in the base that holds the tripod mounting holes is now exposed, and can be reaplced cheaply if you manage to strip your threads, or rip the thing out! you jsut switch one peaivce, not the whole bottom of the camera.
*It has a new tape drive machanisim.. this is to conform to new Enviromental regulations making the camera legal to sell in places like California(!)
*The door latches are far more solid, so that with a strong grip you don't pull the door open far enoguh to set off the "ejected" sensor and kill yoru recording.
*THE COLOR. it is indeed the BMW color "Black Safari" - which looks rather nice in my oppinion.
*According to Jan, the camera has an overall "Sexier look".
*And now for some features; the DSP has been revised... there is now less noise in the darker areas.
*You can turn off ALL the displays in the viewfinder by holding down the "Display" button for a few secconds..you can also bring them back the same way
*You can run an "End search" while you are in CAMERA mode.. without having ot go to VCR mode to do it!
*The chips are the SAME, The camera shoots THE SAME PICTURES and redords them the same way... that means that you can stick and anamorphic lens on, or you can use the "stretch" recording to get 16:9 without and exra lens.. however...
*The display has a switchable aspect ratio. So alongside the normal 4:3 (fullscreen) display, you can through the menu, set the display to 16:9..this will allow you proper composition for any 16:9 shooting, wether you are using "stretch" or an external Lens - the display aspectration is independent from the recording mode.. so you can configure it as you wish
*There is a setting to switch the headphone output between direct live sound (good for a sound recorder/boom op) or in sync with the image on the LCD (so delayed a little as it goes through the recording processes.
*It has improved graphics in the menu, improving visibilty and makign it easier to use. - It's still the same menu system though, so it'll be totally familer to anyone upgrading.
*And improved connectivity; It has a 2nd mini-plug connector for remote Focus and Iris.. this is in _addition_ to the Zoom/rec-Pause remote connector.. so you can now contoll all of them. Supposedly Varizoom allready has a remote ready for this feature that it will be reasing shipping when teh camera does...the same remotes will also work for the same port on the HVX.
*and the magic Firewire connections: You can use firewire to do a dump of all the camera settings from one DVX100B to a 2nd one.. handy if you are in the studion and need to quickly insure that your cmaera settings match.
*and here is one of my favoriates.. The camera can be set to read, and Jam sync it's timecode to an incoming timecode signal on Firewire.. this is from ANY camera that sends out TC over Firewire when recording, Not all cameras do, but most of them do (including the 100 and 100A of course) This allows you to plug in your DVX100B as a slave camera with firewire to match timecode with another camera, then go off and shoot.. with yoru cameras having matched timecode.. great for multicam work! ..I wonder how long someone makes a box to convert regular timecode into firewire timecode ot interface with slates, audio recorders, etc..
The US MSRP is $3995, and it will ship in October (this year).
According to Jan, don't cry if you jsut baught a cmaera.. it's not a big step up from the 100A.. in fact, if you arn't looking for any of the new features, you might as well stick with the 100A..and get it for a great price!
And again, if you have a 100 that works for you fine, but there you would be more likly to see a larger upgrade..due to the combination of 100->100A and 100A->100B upgrades.
And yes, the 100A will of course still be in stock in stores for a little while, with that great rebate. Hey everyone wins!
The only thing that tickles my fancy is the lower lowlight noise in dark areas. Dunno if it'll be worth it.
Motherboard
New member
Jan: do u have any imput on this?????
Kelly Olsen
New member
Turk, once again you said it like it is.
Barry's explanation of different marketing arms for Europe and the USA and different price points and all that may be true. I've no reason to believe that they are not correct and I defer to his experience.
However, I agree that a press release from a company that makes no distiction and no disclaimer and is available to the world cannot be labeled as an isolated piece of information pertaining to only a certain area of the world. Particularly when there is an ANNOUCEMENT which states that the most important part of a camera, i.e., THE IMAGE IT CAPTURES, has been improved!
It is just bizzare that some here that are associated with Panasonic are either silent on this issue or are acting like we are too concerned with these comments in the press release or are "reading things into it."
This is a site about imaging. The measurements of S/N ratios are discussed at length. People pull out their wave form meters and hook them up and post graphs and argue over the smallest of variations. People split electronic hairs here on a daily basis.
But now, I feel like I fell into an episode of the Twilight Zone. All of a sudden none of the normal rules apply. Up is down, down is sideways - followed by a chorus of, "Why are some of you making such a big deal about Panasonic stating that it has made enhancements to the most important part of its product with no explanation."
You know, as in real estate, "Location, location, Location." Well, in cameras, it's "Image Quality, Image Quality, Image Quality."
And how is it possible to "misinterpret" "or read too much into" the words:
"Improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments have enhanced this already high quality unit allowing productions to cut material shot on this Camcorder into other formats with even more ease."
This isn't some small, esoteric, picky little issue. It is a major claim about the most important part of the camera.
So why, on a site that has 14,492 posts about the HVX200, is it unreasonable to ask what these statements (which are still there on the web as this is written) about the DVX100B mean? And why is it impossible to get an answer?
Barry's explanation of different marketing arms for Europe and the USA and different price points and all that may be true. I've no reason to believe that they are not correct and I defer to his experience.
However, I agree that a press release from a company that makes no distiction and no disclaimer and is available to the world cannot be labeled as an isolated piece of information pertaining to only a certain area of the world. Particularly when there is an ANNOUCEMENT which states that the most important part of a camera, i.e., THE IMAGE IT CAPTURES, has been improved!
It is just bizzare that some here that are associated with Panasonic are either silent on this issue or are acting like we are too concerned with these comments in the press release or are "reading things into it."
This is a site about imaging. The measurements of S/N ratios are discussed at length. People pull out their wave form meters and hook them up and post graphs and argue over the smallest of variations. People split electronic hairs here on a daily basis.
But now, I feel like I fell into an episode of the Twilight Zone. All of a sudden none of the normal rules apply. Up is down, down is sideways - followed by a chorus of, "Why are some of you making such a big deal about Panasonic stating that it has made enhancements to the most important part of its product with no explanation."
You know, as in real estate, "Location, location, Location." Well, in cameras, it's "Image Quality, Image Quality, Image Quality."
And how is it possible to "misinterpret" "or read too much into" the words:
"Improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments have enhanced this already high quality unit allowing productions to cut material shot on this Camcorder into other formats with even more ease."
This isn't some small, esoteric, picky little issue. It is a major claim about the most important part of the camera.
So why, on a site that has 14,492 posts about the HVX200, is it unreasonable to ask what these statements (which are still there on the web as this is written) about the DVX100B mean? And why is it impossible to get an answer?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Because, mainly, the answer you are getting isn't the one you want.
So, first, let me address Turk: Turk, the best thing I can say about your post is: "there's the way things are, and there's the way things ought to be." And they aren't the same thing.
The US doesn't control what Europe announces, nor does the US get veto power over the words the European marketing division chooses to use. The European division sells only to European customers; what they do has no bearing whatsoever on the US, just like what the US does has no bearing on what happens to the European customers. That is the way things ARE.
Take a look at some of the cars Ford sells in Europe, or Nissan sells in Japan, and note that we don't get those over here. They're different markets, and they are administered to differently.
Regarding Kelly's seven-hundredth posting of the words "improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments" -- quoting a marketing bulletin will not make something appear out of thin air that's not there. I have seen the 100B at ResFest -- there are NO NEW "ADVANCED IMAGE ADJUSTMENTS. There aren't any. Take me to task for pointing out the obvious, but just because the European division chose to make some vague and unsubstantiated statement, that doesn't make it reality. It makes it a European division press release. Which has no binding authority over the US version.
Is it possible that the European version might have some new color reproduction? I guess so. Maybe. But the US version doesn't, as near as I could tell. Is it possible that the European version has new "advanced image adjustments"? Maybe, I wouldn't know -- I've never seen a European DVX100B. But I've seen the American one, and I can tell you that there are NO new advanced image adjustments.
Really -- if you want an answer, why not just ask the European office what it is they meant by those statements? They're the ones who wrote them. They should have an explanation for them. AFAIK, no European Panasonic representative posts on this forum. Jan does, yes -- but Jan is Panasonic US. The issue was started in Europe by a European press release.
The only thing I can say about the 100B, regarding image quality, is that Mikko reported that it had "lower noise" in the image. That's it. Not that that's a small thing, but that's been already reported.
So, first, let me address Turk: Turk, the best thing I can say about your post is: "there's the way things are, and there's the way things ought to be." And they aren't the same thing.
The US doesn't control what Europe announces, nor does the US get veto power over the words the European marketing division chooses to use. The European division sells only to European customers; what they do has no bearing whatsoever on the US, just like what the US does has no bearing on what happens to the European customers. That is the way things ARE.
Take a look at some of the cars Ford sells in Europe, or Nissan sells in Japan, and note that we don't get those over here. They're different markets, and they are administered to differently.
Regarding Kelly's seven-hundredth posting of the words "improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments" -- quoting a marketing bulletin will not make something appear out of thin air that's not there. I have seen the 100B at ResFest -- there are NO NEW "ADVANCED IMAGE ADJUSTMENTS. There aren't any. Take me to task for pointing out the obvious, but just because the European division chose to make some vague and unsubstantiated statement, that doesn't make it reality. It makes it a European division press release. Which has no binding authority over the US version.
Is it possible that the European version might have some new color reproduction? I guess so. Maybe. But the US version doesn't, as near as I could tell. Is it possible that the European version has new "advanced image adjustments"? Maybe, I wouldn't know -- I've never seen a European DVX100B. But I've seen the American one, and I can tell you that there are NO new advanced image adjustments.
Really -- if you want an answer, why not just ask the European office what it is they meant by those statements? They're the ones who wrote them. They should have an explanation for them. AFAIK, no European Panasonic representative posts on this forum. Jan does, yes -- but Jan is Panasonic US. The issue was started in Europe by a European press release.
Well, if you want an answer, you'd have to ask someone who KNOWS the answer. And as near as I can tell, the only people who know what the European office meant by those statements is: the European office's press department. So you'd have to ask them. Nobody else can answer.
The only thing I can say about the 100B, regarding image quality, is that Mikko reported that it had "lower noise" in the image. That's it. Not that that's a small thing, but that's been already reported.
Kelly Olsen
New member
Barry_Green said:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Kelly, I apologize -- I had just worked a 15 1/2-hour day, so I guess I was a bit cranky when I wrote that response! Your determination to get an answer is well justified in light of the expected $3,400 expenditure under contemplation!
All I can say is -- I've spent a fair amount of time with the 100B, and I do not understand that line in the press release at all. There are no changes to the image controls, and the only change to the picture quality at all, that I could determine, was that it is a little cleaner as regards noise.
Whatever that press release is talking about, it either is "unsubstantiated" or perhaps does not apply to the US version. Again though, the only ones who really know what that's supposed to mean are the people who wrote it.
Furthermore, keep in mind that every manufacturer, at all times, puts in a disclaimer that says "features and specs subject to change without notice". I was in software long enough to know that the people who wrote the press releases, and even the people who wrote the manuals for the product(!) didn't always verify with us (the guys actually MAKING the product!) to verify that it did or didn't do whatever they were saying it does. Many times they'd put out a press release saying that the game would do such-and-such because that's what the game designers told them it would do. Well, we were the engineers, and we couldn't always do what they were asking. So the product did what we could make it do, regardless of what the marketing department claimed it was going to do. So is there some residual resentment leading me to claim that the European press release was perhaps making "unsubstantiated claims"? Yeah, probably. Does this reflect the actual circumstances going on within Panasonic Europe? I don't know, of course. I have no idea what's going on internally over there, or why they chose the specific words that they did. All I know is that I've used the product to some degree, and I can't say that what they put in that press release (specifically the paragraph in question) jibes with what I've experienced in the pre-release product at ResFest.
There are many very nice changes in the 100B, that's for sure.
All I can say is -- I've spent a fair amount of time with the 100B, and I do not understand that line in the press release at all. There are no changes to the image controls, and the only change to the picture quality at all, that I could determine, was that it is a little cleaner as regards noise.
Whatever that press release is talking about, it either is "unsubstantiated" or perhaps does not apply to the US version. Again though, the only ones who really know what that's supposed to mean are the people who wrote it.
Furthermore, keep in mind that every manufacturer, at all times, puts in a disclaimer that says "features and specs subject to change without notice". I was in software long enough to know that the people who wrote the press releases, and even the people who wrote the manuals for the product(!) didn't always verify with us (the guys actually MAKING the product!) to verify that it did or didn't do whatever they were saying it does. Many times they'd put out a press release saying that the game would do such-and-such because that's what the game designers told them it would do. Well, we were the engineers, and we couldn't always do what they were asking. So the product did what we could make it do, regardless of what the marketing department claimed it was going to do. So is there some residual resentment leading me to claim that the European press release was perhaps making "unsubstantiated claims"? Yeah, probably. Does this reflect the actual circumstances going on within Panasonic Europe? I don't know, of course. I have no idea what's going on internally over there, or why they chose the specific words that they did. All I know is that I've used the product to some degree, and I can't say that what they put in that press release (specifically the paragraph in question) jibes with what I've experienced in the pre-release product at ResFest.
There are many very nice changes in the 100B, that's for sure.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The 100B has remote focus and iris controls...xl70e3 said:
thisiswells
Retired
Barry, my only point of the EU USA thing was having nearly everyone--including Jan--refer to the EU press release to get our information on the 100B. In a world of global communication it behooves everyone--be they EU or NTSC markets to be more specific towards their markets in their respective press releases. Or tell us not to pay attention to the pricing but read the details regarding the product--or whatever. It's like throwing out "Here's your carrot", then saying maybe it isn't a full size carrot.
Fortunately or unfortunately, we all know there is a difference between Pal and NTSC camera technology--so it's very possible parts of EU press release may not apply. The answer to that is for Panasonic NTSC to step forward to clarify or simply say not to bother with the EU details until NTSC details are posted. (But here we are weeks later and nothing is posted...)
What is disappointing is that Panasonic NTSC still doesn't even have a photo or reference to this camera on its USA website. So they're really not taking effort even to clarify--perhaps thinking the less information the better for the 100A sales--until the very last minute prior to Oct 31st rebate deadline. Then viola! All the information and pricing imaginable!
It's not so sinister; it could be just good business depending upon where one is sitting. Panasonic has gotten into--IMO--an egregious habit via announcing the 200 so early. Too early. It wasn't even out of development. It's a great idea with a lot of great specs. No one wishes it a harmful debut, bugs, or anything else.
The 100B will float nearly two months during the 100A rebate--with no real official release or details. Now we find there may be little to no difference in picture quality--the 100A is pretty good to begin with. Coupla tweaks. Updates, hardly upgrades. Already there is talk of $3400 street price for 100B. Back to business as usual, sans lead?
All I expect is Panasonic responsiveness. It wouldn't have taken anything for Panasonic to put up the USA NTSC specs, pic, with no official price (Price Pending). At least we'd have good information upon which one can make a declarative 100A/100B decision while not waiting for an "official" release, then possibly finding out the 100A is no longer available (since the rebate can be cancelled at any time...like running out of 100As).
Oh well, this isn't that big a thing. There's always the 100A, 16:9 mask, shoe polish. It's just that there's no good reason to not have put up the NTSC 100B specs/pic--with price disclaimer.
The king is dead! Long live the king!
Maybe Jan will blow a hole in this entire thread with a Kracker Jack battery/BGreen deal.
(And I still think it's time to push video for firmware Updates as opposed to hardware Upgrades. Everyone knows 35mm megapixel size/various chips is not the final word in true image quality.)
Let's hope we get pics/details soon. (...and Barry--remember the thread where the guy kept inquiring about whether the 100B had intervalmeter. Well, does it? I may be interested in that too!)
Update: Haha, I did 100B google; there are now USA retailers taking pre-orders with no price listed but mentioning the mini dv across the board price reductions! Whoops!
Fortunately or unfortunately, we all know there is a difference between Pal and NTSC camera technology--so it's very possible parts of EU press release may not apply. The answer to that is for Panasonic NTSC to step forward to clarify or simply say not to bother with the EU details until NTSC details are posted. (But here we are weeks later and nothing is posted...)
What is disappointing is that Panasonic NTSC still doesn't even have a photo or reference to this camera on its USA website. So they're really not taking effort even to clarify--perhaps thinking the less information the better for the 100A sales--until the very last minute prior to Oct 31st rebate deadline. Then viola! All the information and pricing imaginable!
It's not so sinister; it could be just good business depending upon where one is sitting. Panasonic has gotten into--IMO--an egregious habit via announcing the 200 so early. Too early. It wasn't even out of development. It's a great idea with a lot of great specs. No one wishes it a harmful debut, bugs, or anything else.
The 100B will float nearly two months during the 100A rebate--with no real official release or details. Now we find there may be little to no difference in picture quality--the 100A is pretty good to begin with. Coupla tweaks. Updates, hardly upgrades. Already there is talk of $3400 street price for 100B. Back to business as usual, sans lead?
All I expect is Panasonic responsiveness. It wouldn't have taken anything for Panasonic to put up the USA NTSC specs, pic, with no official price (Price Pending). At least we'd have good information upon which one can make a declarative 100A/100B decision while not waiting for an "official" release, then possibly finding out the 100A is no longer available (since the rebate can be cancelled at any time...like running out of 100As).
Oh well, this isn't that big a thing. There's always the 100A, 16:9 mask, shoe polish. It's just that there's no good reason to not have put up the NTSC 100B specs/pic--with price disclaimer.
The king is dead! Long live the king!
Maybe Jan will blow a hole in this entire thread with a Kracker Jack battery/BGreen deal.
(And I still think it's time to push video for firmware Updates as opposed to hardware Upgrades. Everyone knows 35mm megapixel size/various chips is not the final word in true image quality.)
Let's hope we get pics/details soon. (...and Barry--remember the thread where the guy kept inquiring about whether the 100B had intervalmeter. Well, does it? I may be interested in that too!)
Update: Haha, I did 100B google; there are now USA retailers taking pre-orders with no price listed but mentioning the mini dv across the board price reductions! Whoops!
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, here's the deal: as far as I know, no company ever introduces features of a new model that is replacing an existing model until they are ready to ship it. It just isn't done -- especially by an electronics/tech company.
They'll release info about a new model line, yes -- so JVC will pre-announce the HD100, Panasonic pre-announces the HVX200, Canon pre-announces the XL H1. But Canon did not pre-announce the XL2! Sony didn't pre-announce the PD170, and Panasonic didn't pre-announce the DVX100A. Nor will Panasonic USA pre-announce the DVX100B until it's ready to put it on the shelves. The fact that she even mentioned there was a 100B coming (replacing lead) was a major surprise -- they never pre-announce.
As far as Jan referring to the EU press release -- I don't remember that post or the phrasing in it, but I would guess it was along the lines of "we aren't announcing anything yet, so if you want to go read the European press release, go ahead."
Regarding across-the-board DV price reductions -- if that's effective for the US, that's great. Glad to hear it. Last I knew they were still talking about $3995 for the DVX100B. But, again, it hasn't been announced in the US yet. It has not been released in the US yet. Maybe it will list for less. Maybe that "across the board" thing will apply to the US as well. If it does, that's the US division's choice to implement it (or not implement it). Let's hope they do!
Where did you see USA retailers taking pre-orders? I thought speccomm just answered this a couple of days ago by saying that no US authorized dealers were taking pre-orders?
They'll release info about a new model line, yes -- so JVC will pre-announce the HD100, Panasonic pre-announces the HVX200, Canon pre-announces the XL H1. But Canon did not pre-announce the XL2! Sony didn't pre-announce the PD170, and Panasonic didn't pre-announce the DVX100A. Nor will Panasonic USA pre-announce the DVX100B until it's ready to put it on the shelves. The fact that she even mentioned there was a 100B coming (replacing lead) was a major surprise -- they never pre-announce.
As far as Jan referring to the EU press release -- I don't remember that post or the phrasing in it, but I would guess it was along the lines of "we aren't announcing anything yet, so if you want to go read the European press release, go ahead."
Regarding across-the-board DV price reductions -- if that's effective for the US, that's great. Glad to hear it. Last I knew they were still talking about $3995 for the DVX100B. But, again, it hasn't been announced in the US yet. It has not been released in the US yet. Maybe it will list for less. Maybe that "across the board" thing will apply to the US as well. If it does, that's the US division's choice to implement it (or not implement it). Let's hope they do!
Where did you see USA retailers taking pre-orders? I thought speccomm just answered this a couple of days ago by saying that no US authorized dealers were taking pre-orders?
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