VFR mode on the AF101 may have cost me my biggest client today!

CraftyClown

CraftyClown

New member
I feel physically sick as I type this, but here goes; Yesterday on a shoot for my main client my cameraman accidentally put the camera into VFR mode after pressing in the shutter f/rate button by mistake! He thought nothing off it, as the display still said 25p, there were audio levels coming up on the display and my sound man was still getting what he thought was a recorded audio feed. This means that a whole days work has been rendered completely useless and will probably cost me the client.

Why in god's name do audio levels still display when there is no audio being recorded?? And why when VFR is set to off in the menus, can it be so easily switched back on again? I am completely sick to my stomach and am now genuinely concerned that this may have caused irreparable damage to my business!

I want to cry!
 
Ouch man. Only thing that comes to mind is you could offer to do a re-shoot, and drop any cost he owed you for the shoot and do it for free, in good faith he will use you again in the future?

Situations like these really suck :(

or perhaps you could even just go back and do some voiceover?
 
The firmware update will put up an icon that says "A.REC" with a slash through it, to warn you that no audio is being recorded.
 
The problem is, is it's all piece to camera work, with about 150 separate takes, so voiceover is out of the question.

I can't get through to my client right now as they are in a meeting, but I will offer to do the job again for free for them. If they will let me!

I'm just shocked at how easy it was to completely screw everything up without realising it.

I'm so depressed right now!
 
There is some shaky engineering on this camera. Why on earth they would have allowed a little wheel on the back of the camera to essentially disable audio recording without warning (originally), is really amazing.

And why on Earth they didn't, and still haven't, put the ability to change ISO on that wheel, which would be a far better use of it, is equally astonishing. It's as though the only people who tested the camera outside of a lab or clean room were the group of DPs who used it in Japan a month before it was sent to production. Ridiculous.
 
There is a firmware update that addresses the issue of the camera not telling you it's in VFR.

Normally in the lower left it will display an icon saying what audio format it's recording, either "AC3" or "LPCM". With the new firmware update, when in VFR mode, it puts up a circle/slash "A.REC" icon, to tell you that no audio is being recorded. However, the bars still show the level of incoming sound, so -- if you're not paying attention you could still do it to yourself. You have to be sure to check that the circle/slash icon isn't showing up (and there's not really a "circle", that's just how I'm describing it.)
 
bhdfield said:
There is some shaky engineering on this camera. Why on earth they would have allowed a little wheel on the back of the camera to essentially disable audio recording without warning (originally), is really amazing.
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My biggest complaint about it. At least they did address it after some screaming.

And why on Earth they didn't, and still haven't, put the ability to change ISO on that wheel, which would be a far better use of it, is equally astonishing.
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Not really. Changing ISO is a DSLR thing. This isn't a DSLR and wasn't meant to be a "panavised DSLR". It's a video camera, designed by people who build video cameras. Changing ISO is something that video camera users rarely if ever do, whereas DSLR shooters do it all the time. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying it's not "astonishing" because it's something that they likely never even thought of.

It's as though the only people who tested the camera outside of a lab or clean room were the group of DPs who used it in Japan a month before it was sent to production.
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That's possible. But I'll also say this -- I had it for a month before that Osaka trip, and I didn't ask them to put ISO on the wheel. Why would I? Because, I'm not a DSLR shooter, I'm from the film/video days, and in video... "you just don't do that." Not saying it's wrong, just saying that it's ... inconceivable, basically. It's just something nobody does (video shooters, that is).

Now, I've changed my mind and think it would be a good use of the wheel, because after experimenting with the ISOs I think there's little to no noise difference, and little to no DR difference, from 200 to 800. And even 3200 is pretty clean. So I think changing ISO is a far more valid technique on this particular video camera, than it was on any of their prior cameras -- adding gain is pretty much a big verboten no-no in the world of video cameras.

I'm not saying it's wrong to put ISO on the wheel, I'm saying that it certainly never occurred to me in the month I was using it, it's something nobody in "Verse" asked about, and I can certainly guess that nobody in the video factory ever thought about it. It's just not something that video camera users do, and therefore it didn't occur to me, and I bet it never occurred to them either.

But yes, it is a valid technique and it would be nice if they added it.
 
There's just one use I can think of for keeping the audio in VFR mode if the camera isn't recording it. If it works. And that is- to put out a non-VFR signal with audio to an external HDMI recorder at the same time as recording VFR in camera. Which is certainly something I'd be interested in doing myself if I had the recorder. I often want sound with my slow-mo, and sound plus a "vanilla" version of the pictures as output for monitoring to HDMI has certain advantages.

BUT there's really no excuse for showing the audio bars in camera, even if the audio feed to HDMI stays live in VFR mode (which I don't know if it even does).

The A-rec warning is a sticking plaster over a bad design decision- audio bars are what one is supposed to rely on to check at a glance that sound is recording. Kudos to Panasonic for issuing the sticking plaster so quickly after camera release, but I'm hoping they'll fix the issue properly by killing the bars in a future firmware update because this one is a disaster-maker.

I feel so sorry for the original poster- that sucks so much and it is so easy to do it has to count as a major, major design flaw. It is even more lethal because of the ease with which one can turn it on by accident, or leave it on and have no feedback.

It is actually so bad that it might be worth considering running a Zoom recorder on critical shoots as a backup sound recorder. I use radio transmitters on my mics so could set up the zoom with a second receiver for fully independent sound recording, because I could get two channels recording the mic output and two for ambient from the Zoom's own mic. Manually synching sound or cleaning up unmonitored sound from the Zoom's own internal mics would be a pain, but compared with having no sound at all from the whole day, it would be a godsend. So I think the Zoom is going in the kit bag for my next location shoot.

Cheers, Hywel.
 
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Just as a follow up, I have somehow managed to smooth things out with the client. It will involve two re-shoots and will be done for free, costing me a fair bit, but at least I haven't lost them as a client!

I'm pleased Panasonic have tried to address this issue in their update, however I still feel there should be no audio bars displayed if audio is not being recorded and I also think that if you turn off VFR in your scene file, it really shouldn't be so easy to switch it back on again!

I agree with your point about gain settings on a video camera Barry. I have always considered using gain an absolute no, no! Unless there was no other way to get enough light. It is refreshing to be able to look at gain/ISO in a whole new light (If you'll excuse the pun)
 
Barry_Green said:
My biggest complaint about it. At least they did address it after some screaming.

I'm not saying it's wrong to put ISO on the wheel, I'm saying that it certainly never occurred to me in the month I was using it, it's something nobody in "Verse" asked about, and I can certainly guess that nobody in the video factory ever thought about it. It's just not something that video camera users do, and therefore it didn't occur to me, and I bet it never occurred to them either.

But yes, it is a valid technique and it would be nice if they added it.
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I agree that given Panasonic's DNA, putting ISO on the wheel (even as an option) may not have occurred to them. And when using the camera in a studio or in a shot-by-shot scenario when lighting doesn't change much, you don't usually have to change ISO. But within 5 minutes of using this camera in an on-location variable environment, I was digging into the menu for the ISO. This is a unique camera, not like other video cameras I've used before. The limitations of the 14-140, or differing characteristics and speeds of various lenses demand digging into the menu to change ISO on a very regular basis when shooting in uncontrolled situations combined with the desire for constant DOF/aperture - or just zooming in on the 14-140! It would make this camera so much better for the user in these situations (which is 70% of my paying gigs), to have the ISO adjustment option on the wheel. Jan?
 
Crafty, now's the time to get busy, pull this job outa the dumpster and think of things to give your client value added ingredients on the reshoot.

Don't wipe the silent footage, go over it with your cameraman and figure out how to make it better on the reshoot. You'll probably keep the client for life .. the name CC says it all mate.

Cheers.
 
bhdfield said:
to have the ISO adjustment option on the wheel. Jan?
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I agree it should be there. Or on the Function Knob. It's a new workflow for us old dogs, but it's a good one -- the ISO is soooo frickin' clean that it is a totally viable way to work with this camera, and having more accessibility to it would be welcome.
 
ughh, i feel your pain CC. I knew this was gonna cost some people some serious heart ache. Keep your head up on this one. I like Raster's advice. Look at this as a chance to really shine with this client in terms of making it right.

Also heartily agree about putting iso on the function knob. I think the wheel on the back has enough jobs already with the shutter speed, VFR, and shutter angle. Having the function knob cycle between WB and ISO would be delightful.
 
Hywel said:
There's just one use I can think of for keeping the audio in VFR mode if the camera isn't recording it. If it works. And that is- to put out a non-VFR signal with audio to an external HDMI recorder at the same time as recording VFR in camera. Which is certainly something I'd be interested in doing myself if I had the recorder. I often want sound with my slow-mo, and sound plus a "vanilla" version of the pictures as output for monitoring to HDMI has certain advantages.

BUT there's really no excuse for showing the audio bars in camera, even if the audio feed to HDMI stays live in VFR mode (which I don't know if it even does).

The A-rec warning is a sticking plaster over a bad design decision- audio bars are what one is supposed to rely on to check at a glance that sound is recording. Kudos to Panasonic for issuing the sticking plaster so quickly after camera release, but I'm hoping they'll fix the issue properly by killing the bars in a future firmware update because this one is a disaster-maker.
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Agreed 100%!

I have shot things thinking I have audio then NOTHING! That is frustrating because when you see the meters going you think you have sound. The slash is a band-aid but please dear God Panasonic just turn the audio ON in VFR. How complicated could this be?
 
Sorry that happened to you. VFR got me as well. Had to re-shoot the whole spot but it wasn't that big of a deal and the talent was cool about it. I got lucky.
 
CraftyClown said:
Just as a follow up, I have somehow managed to smooth things out with the client. It will involve two re-shoots and will be done for free, costing me a fair bit, but at least I haven't lost them as a client!
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Very good for you. Once I shot a wedding and the mic cable was twisted so I had no audio of the ceremony. I calmly explained to the client that it was an unfortunate situation, but at least the footage looked great. I went back to the church a week later and filmed someone else's wedding paying close attention to the priest. Then, I asked him later on, once the ceremony was over, to say out my couple's names a couple of times in a couple of different ways and inflections. After that, I had my clients do their vows as an overdub while watching their footage. the final product looked great and sounded great, and luckily I looked like a genius because they could not tell the difference.

There is always a way! Problems can always happen. Just keep up the communication with the client. and they will work with you.

Good luck!
 
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