Red vs D20

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emmanuel cambier

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You can now download from ARRI website http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/d_20/d_20_images.htm, 3 pictures from the D20
They are TIFF and represent the full resolution from the camera.
also they have been graded.

Well guess what ?
They are about 10x more noisy than images from the RED, not to forget that full resolution on the D20 is "only" 2k.:)
There is only the Dynamic Range that seems really good.

Just wanted to share
 
Looks really good, but definitely noisier than the RED pics we've seen. I'd be really interested in seeing a comparison between the two (real world footage, not resolution charts), with the D20 at 2K and RED at 2K scaled from 4K. Should yield interesting results.
 
Yeah, I've seen those. I've got mixed messages about the D20, but this thread pointed to the same thing :http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=81124&page=2&highlight=noise

I agree that there needs to be the same parameters for the test, and with repeatable results involved, for there to be any true comparison. The noise issue can be overblow sometimes, but on the big screen it's a definite variable - one which we take into real consideration when choosing film stocks, for example.

Those stills were rated 400 ISO, so they may have been pushed and graded for that.

I hope we can get a shootout with the competing cams - Viper/Genesis/D 20/Cinealta etc.. after the
camera starts shipping, but to be honest I don't know if some of them would want to put their ponys next to RED (considering the price)...
:beer:

Vive la resolution
 
D_and_G said:
Those stills were rated 400 ISO, so they may have been pushed and graded for that.

I hope we can get a shootout with the competing cams - Viper/Genesis/D 20/Cinealta etc.. after the
camera starts shipping, but to be honest I don't know if some of them would want to put their ponys next to RED (considering the price)...
:beer:

Vive la resolution
Click to expand...

Hi,

Noise has been an issue with the D20, however the viewfinder is very good!

I think Geoff Boyle is planning a Back to Back of all avaliable digital cameras V 35mm & 16mm in January/ February. Hopefully Red will be there, I guess Genesis will be busy that week!

Stephen
 
Christian said:
Andreas Berkl from Arri Munich told me that the D20 is capable of shooting 4K. Who says it's only 2K?
Click to expand...

Hi,

I¨think you are correct, there was just no way for them to record the data!

Stephen
 
Christian said:
Andreas Berkl from Arri Munich told me that the D20 is capable of shooting 4K. Who says it's only 2K?
Click to expand...

Well the stills you can download are marked "in full resolution" and they actually are 1920x1080.
If the D20 was shooting 4k (wich I've never heard of) I'm certain this information would be hard to miss on their website don't ya think:huh:
 
emmanuel cambier said:
Well the stills you can download are marked "in full resolution" and they actually are 1920x1080.
If the D20 was shooting 4k (wich I've never heard of) I'm certain this information would be hard to miss on their website don't ya think:huh:
Click to expand...

Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I¨think you are correct, there was just no way for them to record the data!

Stephen
Click to expand...
Stephen is right I think. I remember him (Andreas) talking about problems with capturing. Those pictures 'v been taken to a HD CAM SR Rec Deck, which wouldn't be capable of recording 4K Footage. HD CAM SR is 1920x1080 (standard 1080p)! So nothing else can come from this.

Their Techs & Specs Section says:

Active sensor pixels: 3018 x 2200
But there chip might have been evolved further so it could be full rezz 4K by now. I dunno, but why would any Official say something like this, if it isn't true?

Anyway...I were able to shoot some footage with the D20 on that day in Munich and really liked it. I used a 35mm Ultra Prime and got very high contrast shots from Arri's patio.
I very much liked the viewfinder concept! You can easily judge critical focus and have a very bright image to look at. Also I find it way more pleasing to the eye to not have to watch "Mini TV" in your camera all day.

The only disadvantage was the weight and the mere size of the body, but i've been told that their technicians are able to put all that stuff down to the size of a 235 once it's really ready.
 
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Stephen Williams said:
That is Arri's goal.
Click to expand...

That's what I assumed. I guess they are creating an image that old school DP's can feel comfortable with. I think Arri wants the grain in there. It looks like the RED guys are not worried about mimicking film, so we get the "grainless" look of the milkgirls.

All just theory on my part, because I'm not privy to the Mojo.:huh:
 
No doubt that the ARRI D20 is a wonderful piece of equipment, the build quality and the optical viewfinder alone makes it yummy as can be.

On the other hand there seems to be issues in the workflow from what you guys say, and I think we can all agree the difference with the RED ONE in term of noise is quite tremendous. Of course one may argue that this "grain" is sought after by some DP's, but we all know that this "electronic" grain could always be applied in post, probably some better looking grain too.
emmanuel
 
D20 is 3k, not 4k. Major issue is workflow as it's either uncompressed to hard drive or to HDCAM SR, both of which don't come cheap. And yes, it's a tad noisy.

For practical purposes, noise = dynamic range, as in a digital system you have hard white clipping, so to get more dynamic range, you give yourself quieter and quieter shadows to get more DR.

Graeme
 
In the six camera comparison projected by the ASC the D-20 was surprisingly one of the worst performers. The Dalsa was best, followed by the F950 if you can believe that, and I think the Viper would have been better too except it had backfocus issues, which I think have now been resolved.
 
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