I opined long ago that there was still enough money on the table for Samsung to stay in - the high end pro with the PL-mount, the point-and-shoots, the camcorders, while keeping the NX line as the cherry on top. But their HQ in Seoul, obviously, decided that photo-video branch diverted whatever engineering expertise they were able to muster and was no longer worth the trouble. Apple, making its own decisions, has moved into video streaming and may move into the electric cars. And the ILC hub will be left with only two big'uns.
GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?
- Thread starter filmguy123
- Start date
I opined long ago that there was still enough money on the table for Samsung to stay in - the high end pro with the PL-mount, the point-and-shoots, the camcorders, while keeping the NX line as the cherry on top. But their HQ in Seoul, obviously, decided that photo-video branch diverted whatever engineering expertise they were able to muster and was no longer worth the trouble. Apple, making its own decisions, has moved into video streaming and may move into the electric cars. And the ILC hub will be left with only two big'uns.
NorBro
Major Contributor
The BMPC was the lowest before it and it famously announced a price drop a few days after the GH4 for $3K (it was mentioned in 2013 a year before the GH4 but most people didn't see them until 2014).
The IQ difference was absolutely insane at the time when mostly everyone was coming from Canon DSLRs or camcorders.
It was truly hard to believe and it was real life black magic because people couldn't understand how this was possible...and it was one of my first eye-opening life lessons in how technology companies operated.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I think there is room for both...
Most people who love their iPhones and iPads probably don't even know Apple sells $50,000+ Mac Pros (that number/amount is real).
They could have their phones for the world, and their cameras for the forums.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I am basing it on the fact that before we had phones there was like that one uncle in the entire family that actually had a video camera. Most people had zero interest back then in actually buying a camera.
I think it was more companies realized they couldn't sell more cameras like they were hoping to sell. I don't think video cameras were ever a massive seller in the world. Same with DSLRs. It was mostly pros and a handful of cool uncles that bought cameras like that.
I think it was purely a coincidence that phones and a over saturated market happened around the same time.
Maybe it did have some impact but I don't think it was as high as they claim it was. The market likely played a big factor as well. A city like San Francisco likely did see a higher percentage of those willing to buy a video camera or DSLR. A state like WI however where I grew up I rarely knew anybody that ever bought a video camera. Thats why disposable cameras were kind of popular for awhile. People that never wanted to own a camera suddenly had an option to take photos. Then they got smart phones to do that. My argument is those same people likely would have never bought a video camera anyway. It usually took some major life event like the birth of a child for one to buy such a luxury item. Even then my Grandpa on my moms side came fro ma family of 13 kids and my grandpa on my dads side a family of 21 kids. I was the only one out of hundreds of aunts, uncles and cousins that even owned a video camera I the 90's.
Plus you are talking the bottom feeder cameras that grandma would go out and buy for $100. I can't imagine the pro market was hurt at all by phones. The reason why pro video cameras declined was not because of phones but because of DSLRs that could shoot video. When the 7D came out I saw an almost overnight shift from an industry looking at Sony and Canon HDV cameras to a massive exodus to DSLRs that had a new look that was almost impossible on those video cameras. It was the massive shift to DSLRs for video that killed most vide cameras and camcorders. Especially for consumers that could get a hybrid to do both and the DSLRs tended to cost much less. A good video camera back in the day was easily $3,000 while one could get a Canon or Nikon DSLR capable of some kind of HD video and a kit lens for $600. Those DSLRs also tended to be much bette in low light something we had to go the 1/2" chip route which was very expensive on video cameras. In many cases a solid $6,000. When you also factor in camera size and the ability to add different lenses its no wonder why video cameras took a massive hit. Almost every single one of us here moved away from video cameras to DSLRs or cinema cameras at some point and will likely never go back. Has absolutely zero to do with phones.
Video cameras (8mm/Hi8, VHS-C) were a big seller in the late 80'mid-90's, when their prices dropped below $1,000. Even in Wisconsin. By the mid-90's, first digital stills models appeared (in all their glorious 300K resolution) and the early adopters snapped those up pretty quickly. By 1998, a 500K Sony Mavica retailed for ~ $500 and one could insert a floppy disc into a PC and immediately send it out to hit chicks he met in AOL chat rooms.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Yet growing up there I can tell you there were very few in my family or that I went to school with that had one. Maybe some bigger cities that wasn't the case but growing in a smaller town I can tell you it wasn't a common item for people to buy. Never really was. Not that Green Bay is exactly a small town
To be honest I'm not really sure what the point to all of this is. What does a smartphone have to do wit ha GH6? What does it have to do with higher end more professional gear? Not much of anything really. Ok maybe the bottom feeder cameras used quantity to help fund the higher end niche cameras but that sounds like the companies needed to shift their strategy and need t stop blaming a shifting market they seem to be incapable of adapting to. Know who is making a great go as a niche camera company? BMD. A company doesn't always need quantity sales of low end products to help fund the lower sales of quality products. Get rid of the pointless lower end cameras and focus on the niche higher end market.
I think Panasonic attempted to do that with their FF line but I think they aimed way too high and somehow thought it would keep them in the game. In the process they ended up upsetting the loyal m43 users they worked so hard to build up since the GH1. Panasonic had a really good thing going with m43 and yes there is an industry wide obsession with larger sensors but there were still more than enough m43 users that were happy with m43 to stick with it. People have been practically begging for a GH6 for two years and had their wallets ready to purchase a GH6. Instead Panasonic kept saying they love m43 but hey here's more FF products nobody really asked for.
Panasonic should have been smarter about transitioning m43 users to FF. They massively screwed up there and alienated their entire user base at a price point unrealistic to 99% of m43 users. This stuff was supposed to keep getting more affordable and instead Panasonic did a massive 180 and introduced one of the highest cost lens mounts most of us have e ver seen. Many of us invested big in m43 glass and suddenly we realized maybe that was all in vain and would soon be worthless. Not a great way to make a loyal user base feel. I likely would have taken a bullet for Lumix at one point but now its hard to believe in a company we no longer know what the plan is and what to expect for any kind of a future.
I want a GH6 to be amazing but sadly I think the damage was already done. Lumix fans just don't want the S series cameras and lenses and they waited too long for a GH6. Many stopped buying m43 glass years ago already and started adapting EF lenses. The L mounts horrendous EF adapting made the S series even worse with almost no logical upgrade path for anybody. I just find their FF mount choice to be completely mind boggling misguided and likely the single dumbest choice made by Panasonic in a decade. This is coming from a pretty hardcore fan as well. I refuse to invest in L mount because I just don't see it having any kind of a future. I hope I'm wrong about that but if sales don't somehow sky rocket for them I highly doubt the format will stay alive much longer. Panasonic made some killer FF bodies and yes the quality is stunning but sometimes that just isn't enough and people are not going to invest in something that isn't a sure thing.
If Panasonic doesn't invest some serious energy into the GH6 fast and try to win back the hearts and loyalty of the great user base it built up I'm not so sure the future looks very positive. That has zero to do with iPhones and 100% about not understanding and adapting to the market. We wanted a GH6 ASAP and we didn't get it. Instead Panasonic tried to ram down our throats a slew of FF options most of us didn't ask for. We would have happily upgraded to the bodies if we had a decent path for glass but we did not. Panasonic blew it by not creating a lens mount that could make use of m43 glass in some limited way. They blew it by partnering with Leica and initially only targeting the extreme high end users. A user base very unlikely to ever ditch Canon, Nikon or Sony at this stage in the game.
Panasonics biggest competition is now BMD. Film makers loved the GH4 and GH5. At the time cinema cameras were not realistic for most of us. Thats now completely changed. The P4k and P6k changed the game forever. The reality is most film makers don't care about stills or hybrid features. Not sure Panasonic can ever compete with that anymore. Again has squat to do with iPhones. The Gh5S should have been a big item for Panasonic. Then the P4k came out and it was all over after that. Its very hard to complete with a $1,300 camera that can shoot raw and does what its designed to do very well. Yes The GH cameras have more value as a hybrid but a massive amount of those buying a camera for video likely have zero interest in the other hybrid features.Some BMD users would like AF and some kind of stabilization but not enough to sacrifice everything else the Pocket cameras get right.
Film makers have tasted blood (raw) and they want more. Any DSLR now has to compete with that. Not just m43 but FF as well. If I didn't shoot stills as well I would have ditched DSLRs completely by now. That form factor itself may face a limited future. At least on the stills side there are enough stills pros out there to keep Nikon and Canon somewhat alive for awhile. Maybe not so much Nikon but they have a better chance thanks to photography to stay alive longer than Panasonic does.
I lived in Milwaukee 1979-1987 and even worked in electronic - sort of - retail there in 1986-87. And the chain even had a store in Appleton.
But the point about smartphones and the VHS-C/8mm talk is that it helps understand the markets better. Meaning that in this scenario, if someone asked back in 2015 about staying invested in the MFT ecosystem, the reply would likely be, "Of course, why not?". These days, new MFT equipment - whether from OMD or Panasonic - would probably be purchased to extend the life cycle of someone's already existing MFT glass collection. A brand new user would be a rare bird and that will force the GH-4/5 owners to start thinking about jumping ship as well. And if they do - and as we see from posts here, that is indeed the case - then the whole MFT ecosystem is facing extinction.
However, a word of warning - the same has been said about Nikon and then they responded with Z9, which seems to be the state-of-the-art (sorry, the cat's meow) product. And, while Z9 may not be the be-all-end-all camera, it seems to be a fantastic performer for a while to come.
But the point about smartphones and the VHS-C/8mm talk is that it helps understand the markets better. Meaning that in this scenario, if someone asked back in 2015 about staying invested in the MFT ecosystem, the reply would likely be, "Of course, why not?". These days, new MFT equipment - whether from OMD or Panasonic - would probably be purchased to extend the life cycle of someone's already existing MFT glass collection. A brand new user would be a rare bird and that will force the GH-4/5 owners to start thinking about jumping ship as well. And if they do - and as we see from posts here, that is indeed the case - then the whole MFT ecosystem is facing extinction.
However, a word of warning - the same has been said about Nikon and then they responded with Z9, which seems to be the state-of-the-art (sorry, the cat's meow) product. And, while Z9 may not be the be-all-end-all camera, it seems to be a fantastic performer for a while to come.
Zim
Veteran
The iPhone 13 Pro can record in Prores.
What I like about the iPhone is I can put it in my pocket. Most if the time I don't want bigger camera. I gave up on my Nikons and gave them to my kids. I don't want to carry them around. I still have the GH3 and will consider a Gh6.
I used my iPhone 12 Pro Max for a short film and I used a $15 Rode cable to connect the Rode mic to the lighting port.
The Polar Pro kit with a case, grip and filters was $150. You really don't need a lot.
Any camera I've ever bought needs cables, batteries and accessories. I have bags full of that stuff!
Zim
Veteran
Not sure if you have used a GoPro but look what they put in that small camera, and for under $500. If Panasonic wanted to they could really make a great camera and not charge so much.
I agree with Thomas. The choice for me other than the GH6 is BM. I will wait though as I would like to be able to do a backup recording at the same time. With the BM cameras at the moment that is only 1080 from the HDMI. The new BM Studio cameras do have both USB C and HDMI output in UHD. For me this change to the Pockets would make them really attractive. An 8K version would be perfect.
Zim
Veteran
Are you talking about buttons that can be used for shutters? The volume control can be used to take pictures and start shooting video. The camera app has a shutter and it is very easy to get around the camera controls. Must have been awhile since you used a iPhone.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I agree there entirely. I loved m43 glass at one point but not anymore. Its still great to have a very compact and light prime but once I saw what Sigma could do with their f1.4 APS-C primes I realized I no longer had to only use m43 glass.
Not only is the future of m43 a bit in question which makes it harder to invest I the glass most of the lenses released in the past couple of years have been north of $1,000 and in some cases way north. Panasonic seems to think its user base has endless pockets which is a bit of a head scratcher. I'm starting to wonder if they really understand their user base at all. The lenses their released like the f1.7 zooms were exciting and media buzz worthy but they are all out of reach of a lot of users. Even Olympus has mostly been targeting Pro level lenses costing well over $1,000. Cool that they can keep innovating m43 glass bu again very few can actually afford those options.
Pretty much everything Panasonic has released since the GH5 likely did not generate very many sales at all. Due to many potential factors but the big one for me was cost and the glass kept getting much larger and heavier. It got to the point where the bodies and lenses were now almost or at the same size, weight and cost as APS-C or FF options. That right there kind of killed one of the major reasons why users loved m43. Any of the affordable and compact m43 glass is now pretty ancient.
Considering that Samsung has a new 200 MPX (16,000 x 12,000) sensor that is about 90mm2 (1/1.22) in surface area, which is 40% of the MFT, a new Panasonic or OMD camera can indeed wow. In other words, it wouldn't be difficult to make an 8K camera with a 50+ MPX stills resolution and retail it for about $1,200. But that won't benefit Sony's APS-C sales. So, you'll likely see small, incremental changes to both brands lineups.
Meanwhile Samsung will move 280,000,000 smartphones in 2022 and wonder who the heck will want a 20 MPX stand-alone camera when their Galaxy Note can take 200 MPX snapshots already.
Meanwhile Samsung will move 280,000,000 smartphones in 2022 and wonder who the heck will want a 20 MPX stand-alone camera when their Galaxy Note can take 200 MPX snapshots already.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Not to speak for anyone but plenty of cameras have those
things plus this much sought after 10bit 4.2.2. Sony A7siii,
Sony FX3, and Canon C70 are a few off the top of my head.
With lens those are at least twice the cost of a GH5. Also they are 3 years younger than the GH5. Of course the GH5M2 can do those things too and again half the price of those cameras. In fact you could buy 3 GH5M2 for the cost of a single Canon C70. Price has to come into the equation.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I call BS. Also, I don't think anyone here has been talking about camcorders/video cameras proper. We sort of consider DSLRs to be video cameras ever since the 5Dmk2.
Camera sales by year:
iPhone sales by quarter/year:
A few noteworthy things:
1. The demand for interchangeable-lens cameras has not changed much in the last 10 years. Presumably, this is the pro segment that can't effectively replace their gear with a phone.
2. P&S cameras peaked in 2010. According to the iphone sales chart, this was exactly the time that iphones started a rapid ascent, going from just under 50 million units shipped in 4Q 2010 to just under 100 million units shipped in 1Q 2012.
3. iPhone sales started to plateau at about 2015, which is also about when P&S sales plateaued (going in the opposite direction, of course)
Zim
Veteran
I use the Filmic Pro App. But Apple has added more controls.