GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

NorBro said:
Somewhere in one of these threads one of these videos was posted (maybe this one, IDK), but this is going to be so nice for the Pockets and Panasonics for people that really love this stuff:

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I think the results of this are amazing (other than totally losing focus at 22 feet or whatever).

But what's not amazing is the requirement for center framing. And the fact that it can never do eye AF. Especially at FF f/0.95 it seems like a time where you need the eye and not the chest.

And also having to calibrate each lens.

Maybe if lidar can be incorporated into PDAF somehow...

I used to mount Cinetape for various 1st ACs and it always seemed like none of them actually used it. That just gave a distance readout and didnt drive the lens itself.

Nevertheless, impressive speed and accuracy. Maybe center-framing will become a fad to take advantage of lidar haha

It's a little silly to be worried about focusing in less light than the A7SIII can handle because nothing but garbage can be shot down there
 
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DLD said:
One man's opinion, obviously.



https://variety.com/2016/film/awards/arri-alexa-65-camera-hollywood-1201708452/
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The lion's share of the commentary in that article relates to the extra detail and people would probably say the same thing about the 12K. Only one person mentioned selective focus in a wide shot.

And, according to JB (but totally unsurprisingly), the Alexa 65 receives a much higher level of quality control and care in manufacturing which squeezes out additional performance from the same types of materials.
 
Ideally they'd improve the system over time.

My concern with it is it's cumbersome and one more thing to set up and operate.
 
Their current AF system is better, due to, as mentioned above, full screen coverage.

Of course, any technology improves over time.

Now, Panasonic, on the other hand ...
 
I would definitely be up for a GH6 if Panasonic could FINALLY nail the autofocus properly. I really don't want a better GH5 camera with the same slow-poke AF that can't keep a moving target in focus.
 
For the average Joes and Janes, of course not. I mentioned the other day I'd like a really great iPhone, ha.

For the 1%, Hollywood - it's undoubtedly undeniable unless you're (anyone) simply unaware.
 
From a technical point of view, there was very little reason to have an MTF line, aside of that it offered a different market niche/mount, with the smaller sensors having a higher yield of production and thus lower average costs. Lower costs made it a suitable entry level ILC, after the fixed lens mounts of the smaller sensors began to suffer in performance. The GH 3-4-5 offered more in video because a video hybrid didn't need a resolution of the stills oriented models and could offer the video friendly features instead.

These days, the above reasoning is almost all been swept aside. One can have a 4K or 6K full frame, with a great auto focus. The new entry level cameras are APS-C, which mostly makes MFT unnecessary. Photocentric EOS RP is already priced at $1,000, with Z-5 at $1,300. One could make a feature-stripped MFT for way under a grand but Sony A6100 is already being sold at $750.

So, it's not that one couldn't release a GH-6. It's that it'd be a hard going to make it good enough for the GH-4/5 owners and price it to the market, so they don't feel cheated.
 
It's not about money - at least making any with them - because there is none to be made here.

The MFT cameras' sole purpose from a manufacturing standpoint would be to provide loyalty for those existing users until they retire and some other random niche uses.

The newer generation (which also includes the cutting-edge - many here - who join them) and the 1% (which isn't just Hollywood) is a larger-sensor group.
 
MFT still offers - for now at least - 2 major positives.

One, they still offer the best bang for buck for video. They tend to be tough as nails, are weather sealed, deliver high end specs like 10 bit 4K (in the Panasonic lineup any way), 4K slo-mo, and other sought after features that are both relatively rare and expensive in full frame.

It still blows my mind that I picked up a lightly used em1 Mii for $650; you can get a GH5 for $900 (or less) if you look around. If budget is a concern, then MFT still is very appealing. No way can you touch the feature set in FF for those kind of prices (in part because FF only now has caught up and used models still hard to come by).

Second, MFT cameras can used virtually every lens ever made, from 16mm glass all the way up to full frame. Panasonic & Canon's mirrorless full frame lens selections are still wanting in many ways, and of course are bigger and more expensive then MFT. Again, this means a MFT shooter on a budget has far more options then a FF user.

I think MFT will always have a place in wild life/adventure photography because the lenses can be so much smaller. If budget and weight restrictions are not a concern, then yeah, full frame probably wins just about all the time. But if they are (and they sure are for me), then MFT will continue to have great appeal.

The latest set of rumors about the GH6 have it being a very high end camera, not one aimed at low budget film makers or youtubers. I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense given their FF lineup. I doubt anyone is dying for 12 bit 8K in MFT, even if it can do 240 fps. This doubly true if it retains depth by defocus as its AF system.

Franky, I'm not sure putting out a killer GH6 makes any kind of sense for Panasonic. A GH5s with good IBIS and AF would have sold like hotcakes in 2020. I'm not sure if it still would given the advances made in full frame.

For Olympus, simply adding 10 bit codec recording options, plus say 60 or 120p 4K keeps them in the game. They already have the color science, great auto-focus & IBIS, and toughness. Maybe more importantly, they have no higher end lineup to protect. Assuming they do stay in business, they might be able to sell some more glass too, particularly if they can come out with a new 12mm (or wider) 1.4 lens.

It all comes back to bang-for-buck. Technically, MFT will never match up to the new FF cameras, but if they can come close while costing a lot less, then I think there's still a market for the format. There's 10 years worth of buyers who are invested in MFT glass, and there's always a new generation of film makers with little to no money.

But can Oly and Panasonic make money putting out cheaper MFT cameras? That remains to be seen.
 
Bang-for-buck is only valid if the product has what you're/we're looking for.

As we all grow and learn and change, we know more and more what we want or definitely need.

If any camera doesn't have good AF, I wouldn't even take it for free...just not worth anything to me (besides playing around with the random Blackmagic here and there just for fun).
 
I think the one enduring advantage of MFT is DOF (if you want more of it).

Yes, they're cheaper and yes, they're smaller. But the difference is shrinking.

Look at the S5 - fine camera, basically the same weight and launch price as the GH5. Yes, the GH5 still outclasses it in a few ways with recording options, but the S5 outclasses the GH5 in other ways and the subsequent generation could close the gap.

Lenses have a bigger size and weight difference. But look at what tamron is doing with zoom lenses for E mount - they're pretty small and pretty affordable. Look at what basically everyone is doing with f/1.8 and 2.8 primes for E mount - they're very small and very cheap and very high-quality.

Look at the canon f/8 or 11 or whatever super telephoto primes. They're super cheap and lightweight.

So, MFT still has a size and price advantage but it is shrinking. The price advantage may disappear someday.

Then all you're left with is greater DOF and lens reach plus a modest space/weight savings if your primary need is travelling light.

Will it be enough to save the format? Maybe, maybe not. Some people would miss MFT but I'm not sure it will be enough.
 
NorBro said:
... The MFT cameras' sole purpose from a manufacturing standpoint would be to provide loyalty for those existing users until they retire and some other random niche uses...
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It's one of those Catch 43 situations - they don't makes them and you don't buys them.

PS. Sharp was supposed to come out with an 8K MFT unit but it's been MIA since the announcement. This was from July. Maybe the pandemic stopped the release.

https://photorumors.com/2020/07/02/...t-lens-video-camera-should-be-announced-soon/
 
I believe if Panasonic matched the a7SIII on features, added some 6k modes along with a dual gain sensor priced at $2,200 it would sell. Basically everything one would ever need for $1,300 less than the FF equivalent. I don't really need f1.4 on a FF camera for video use. So part of the FF sensor is kind of wasted as I will always be stopping down to some degree.

But, auto focus is quite a sticking point and I would wager that any GH6 will not have a revised AF system. DFD will be limped along much to Panasonic's detriment imho.
 
DLD said:
From a technical point of view, there was very little reason to have an MTF line
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The main features I look for in any camera are...

- 4K 10-bit internal recording

- Unlimited recording time ( essential for live events )

- State-of-the-art IBIS ( so that I can have smooth camera movement without a gimbal or tripod )

- High performance C-AF ( Panasonic's missing ingredient )


Right now there are only a few FF cameras that have all of these features, and some of these features are still not 100 percent there. ( the Sony A7S3 has most of these, but their IBIS still needs some work )
 
TheDingo said:
The main features I look for in any camera are...
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These are not technical but marketing based variations and there's really not much difference between MFT, APS-C or FF in terms of the technology of the day. A7SIII has most/all of what you want. It's just priced higher. S1H has most of that too and is topping out the "consumer DSLR" look. Which it didn't have to do, as the camera form - be it cinema, DSLR, box or hybrid thereof - is also entirely a corporate decision.
 
If people all wanted the exact same features there would likely only be one camera model !! Or at least one in each price range. Applications are all different so there is no one choice. For my projects in the theatre the cameras are all fixed on tripods ( don't need IBIS ) and I always manual focus ( no need for C-AF ). The GH5 and GH5S I have work fine. Would like internal UHD 4:2:2 10bit 60P but now record that to Ninja V and since I now have two of those not much incentive to change cameras. Only reason for me to change would be 8K or at least something more than UHD that I could use for crop/pan/zoom in post.

For hand shooting of family and friends etc I use my Sony AX53 camcorder or DJI Pocket.
 
TheDingo said:
The main features I look for in any camera are...

- 4K 10-bit internal recording

- Unlimited recording time ( essential for live events )

- State-of-the-art IBIS ( so that I can have smooth camera movement without a gimbal or tripod )

- High performance C-AF ( Panasonic's missing ingredient )


Right now there are only a few FF cameras that have all of these features, and some of these features are still not 100 percent there. ( the Sony A7S3 has most of these, but their IBIS still needs some work )
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Yes, A7SIII IBIS is much worse than GH5.

But if you use active stabilization with the 10% crop then it becomes about as good. (You lose in-camera distortion correction in doing so, I believe.)

Incidentally, I expect that 4K 10-bit 60p internal recording with active stabilization will come to the a7iv or some sony camera for $2k in the next year or so. Not sure if it will have unlimited recording.
 
couldn't wait for a GH6 anymore. Just ordered a P4k. It was a tough call between the P4k, S5 and GH5S. In the end the P4k won out over the S5 because of lens options. I liked the S5 a lot but I hated needing to spend $5k+to get a few native L mount lenses. Thats really going to hurt that line. Someday I might still consider it but Panasonic needs more affordable lens options.

GH5S lost out in the end due to cost and honestly if I'm going to get a camera like that I might as well have fun with internal raw and have a camera that does one thing really well vs trying to do too many things. I will continue to use my GH4 for now for stills until the S5 gets better lens options or I see a killer deal to get a couple lenses as a kit or a killer used price on a body and lenses.

I do kind of see the S5 as a potential move for me but its a tough move since I need to invest in new glass which is absolutely not affordable with L mount. I have little desire to move to any other mirrorless system for the same reason and will not get a Canon or Nikon DSLR since those lines are kind of phasing out for the mirrorless options. Panasonic still makes sense for me for FF and the S5 was pretty much the perfect body for me. If Panasonic can get their lens act together for L mount I think the system has a ton of potential.

What does that mean for a GH6? I'm not really sure. I like m43 a lot but its physically impossible to make a hybrid as good as the GH5S with the stills capability of the GH5 unless Panasonic finally manages to utilize their organic sensor. I think that's why I'm starting to be more interested in the S line of cameras. The S5 is basically a FF version of the GH5 or what we want in a GH6 but will never be possible. I even love that the S5 can crop to 1:1 for 4k video essentially making it a APS-c/s35mm camera.

In the end a few other things that made the P4k win for me that may seem odd to others but they are:

1. HDMI delay - incredibly annoying on all Panasonic cameras including the S5 and S1H.
2. Larger screen for my old eyes without slapping on an external monitor.
3. Built in false color and a display system designed to make shooting raw/log easier and to nail exposure.
4. Built in XLR even if just a single port.
5. Kind of internal raw. Yeah I still need a SSD but that's a fraction of the size/weight of an external monitor required for ProRes raw. Honestly if Panasonic is smart they will figure out a way to at least do ProRes raw to an attached SSD on the GH6. I realize Atomos provides a nice path to add the feature to DSLRs but I cannot for the life of me figure out where the heck the new cameras are with internal ProRes raw. Apple is going to have a hard time making that format stick if it only ever works externally for 95% of users. I don't want to always have to use an external recorder for raw.

The P4k just represented a camera with a minimal of extra crap attached. I don't mind the small batteries and swapping them every 45 minutes or so. I am also in situations where I can just use plug in power so I'm not really planning on strapping on a big v mount battery to make it work. I realize sometimes I may want to have a screen that can move but I already have a 7" HD monitor and a 5" Ninja Blade here if I really must and like I mentioned before it has zero HDMI delay if I do need it. I have an external audio recorder I would use on bigger projects but sometimes I just want to quickly turn on the camera and hook a mic into the camera and start rolling within minutes. Also means one less device to attach to my camera as well.

With all this said I might still consider a GH6. I will need to replace my aging GH4 eventually for stills. The GH5 is an option but not enough of an upgrade and is getting a bit old now as well so I would rather wait and see. GH5S just seemed like a backwards move for me for stills. More sensitive but the smaller size images also don't benefit from the GH5 down scaling to help with noise and detail. It will likely come down to a GH6 or S5 in the future to replace my GH4. GH6 will allow me to use all my current lenses. S5 will be a much larger investment but provide quality the GH6, GH7 and GH8 could likely never dream of. I have also come to the realization that I don't need super fast zooms for the S5. A f5.6 zoom is equal to the performance and look of a f2.8 zoom on m43. Thats kit lens territory. f4 options are much more realistic priced for L mount and equal to what a f2.8 FF zoom with a focal reducer would be on m43. I was almost ready to pull the trigger on the S5 but I will wait and see what the GH6 brings to the table for stills and how well it may compliment the P4k for video.
 
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