GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

[NorBro]

I agree with NorBro. If not for anything else, simplified supply chains and associated costs.

Every year we see a decrease in the barriers to FF sensors. The CPU processing and heat required to run them, required body sizes to accommodate such, etc. When there becomes virtually no downside to a larger sensor, and only upsides, and cost begins to stabilize, who would ever choose S35? S35 is sort of an awkward spot. It doesn't get you into smaller lenses like m43 does. It simply makes more sense to create FF sensors with an S35 crop mode to accommodate those who wish to work and think in such a way, or leverage certain specific lenses.

I am wondering if M43 has a longer term place in the market. It does seem to be an interesting spot between mobile and high end FF. I am not afraid to sell off all my M43 gear and abandon ship, that's not why I haven't. I actually REALLY hope it sticks around, especially after my last trip to Indonesia. I tell you, traveling small and light with a kit of M43 glass and a couple bodies all as carry on, and working in the field with such a lightweight lens system, and being able to achieve stabilized extreme telephoto in such a breezy handheld package... you just can't do that on the FF mirrorless bodies, not in the same way. M43 lens are just so much more compact.

If m43 disappears soon, it won't be for lack of utility, it will be for lack of profit due to a smaller niche market. Ironically, S35 is probably a bigger market... but I just think it lacks an utility vs FF/M43.

My dream is for MFT-sized sensors to make it into the point-and-shoots and camcorders if companies insist on continuing to make them.

This maybe could help in the battle with phones.

 

[ahalpert]

Open up that noggin...again. lol

That's what the same kind of thinking thought about 16mm and 35mm film.

And HD and 4K TVs.

And 4:3 and 16:9.

___

Filming in S35 crop modes will coexist, but S35 sensors won't (or barely).

People still shoot 16mm film. You see an occasional 4:3 movie. A 4k TV can play hd with no penalty, so that's a different story. Nothing but upsides to manufacturers for phasing out hdtvs.

A FF camera cannot crop to S35 with no penalty (AA filter optimization for one, noise minimization)

Meanwhile, there are still advantages to S35 including more DOF and smaller lenses. The same advantages that M43 has over S35, except that S35 is much more entrenched.

When arri comes out with a 4K S35 sensor, droves will choose that over the LF

Ask DPs what they actually care about

 

[NorBro]

It is what is, I can't help you understand.

 

[DLD]

MFT has a huge edge in reach for the action/BiF shooters. All Olympus and Panasonic would have needed was a sensor - even if Quad Bayer ... sorry, Quad Buyer - in the 40 MPX range. Sony had that sensor a year ago. But there is no camera with that sensor because it'd first cannibalize the APS-C sector, which is dominated by Sony (Sony-Fuji-Nikon) and force the next tier - which is FF - to come down in price or up its own resolution for both stills and video. That's where the cartel decided on a gradual approach with MFT - no 8K soup for you! FF gets its 8K first and it's all there's to it. And prices are holding up near the $2,000 for the entry level FF with 4K. And APS-C still maxes out at 24-26 MPX.

In any case, Sony obviously wants to to move the market toward the Medium Format. The entry level with 50 MPX Sony sensors, (Pentax 645Z, GFX 50) is $5,000 and Hassy 907 is $6,300. Within a couple of years, they'll have the 102 MPX sensor of GFX 100 and the higher end will have the 150 MPX sensor of Phase One IQ4.

And a top notch auto focus while Panasonic will have Deffin'D.

PS. And a medium format 8K cinema camera will even be better.

 

[ahalpert]

MFT has a huge edge in reach for the action/BiF shooters. All Olympus and Panasonic would have needed was a sensor - even if Quad Bayer ... sorry, Quad Buyer - in the 40 MPX range. Sony had that sensor a year ago. But there is no camera with that sensor because it'd first cannibalize the APS-C sector, which is dominated by Sony (Sony-Fuji-Nikon) and force the next tier - which is FF - to come down in price or up its own resolution for both stills and video. That's where the cartel decided on a gradual approach with MFT - no 8K soup for you! FF gets its 8K first and it's all there's to it. And prices are holding up near the $2,000 for the entry level FF with 4K. And APS-C still maxes out at 24-26 MPX.

In any case, Sony obviously wants to to move the market toward the Medium Format. The entry level with 50 MPX Sony sensors, (Pentax 645Z, GFX 50) is $5,000 and Hassy 907 is $6,300. Within a couple of years, they'll have the 102 MPX sensor of GFX 100 and the higher end will have the 150 MPX sensor of Phase One IQ4.

And a top notch auto focus while Panasonic will have Deffin'D.

PS. And a medium format 8K cinema camera will even be better.

And then people will be saying that FF cinema cameras will be wiped out entirely by medium format...while the media landscape is still shot mostly in S35

 

[NorBro]

Full-frame cameras have many years of specs ahead of them. Just barely getting going with only a few having 4K/60p.

They'll work on these for the next 5 years and then revisit where the world is around 2025.

Eventually I predict everyone (or who's left) to have exactly what RED and Kinefinity have been doing: bigger sensors with multiple resolutions and framerates and modes all across the board while other cameras that don't compete with these will focus on the computational side.

 

[DLD]

And then people will be saying that FF cinema cameras will be wiped out entirely by medium format...while the media landscape is still shot mostly in S35

It always starts at the high end and then trickles down. Sensors for cinema vs. stills will have different resolutions, read outs, frame rate, etc. Full frame in cinema probably has a decade or so to run.

When I first began to post here, the big deals here were GH-4, BMD Cinema Camera, Fs-700 with the not yet ProRes enabled Odyssey, 1D C and a bunch of 1080P moire infused DSLR's. And very few talked about shooting weddings on iPhones.

 

[ahalpert]

Full-frame cameras have many years of specs ahead of them. Just barely getting going with only a few having 4K/60p.

They'll work on these for the next 5 years and then revisit where the world is around 2025.

Eventually I predict everyone (or who's left) to have exactly what RED and Kinefinity have been doing: bigger sensors with multiple resolutions and framerates and modes all across the board while other cameras that don't compete with these will focus on the computational side.

That's all well and good for the low-end, which is most. anyone who has used the crop modes in RED is well-aware of the hit to quality.

Personally, I'd be quite happy with a full-frame (or medium format) camera with crop modes. But I suspect that there will be enough high end demand for S35 to keep them going. And if there is any savings to be had for manufacturers to make S35 instead of FF, they will definitely keep going.

Aps-c and m43 for stills are a different story because they were virtually always about cost and size savings. Eliminate those and you eliminate the formats (although the lenses will always be smaller)

The other thing about stills is that AF is the norm and theres often less of a reason for deep focus than in a movie scene

And stills has decades of FF lenses around. Cinema has decades of S35 lenses

2/3" cameras wont be wiped out either

 

[NorBro]

It will be interesting to see what happens with the already pushed-back ARRI's S35 camera and where it fits with the LFs and 65s being the standard.

If it's canceled by any chance then we'll have our answer.

As far as 2/3...no, they won't because they have a purpose. S35 has less of a purpose, and eventually none. That's the point.

 

[Tom Roper]

The other thing about stills is that AF is the norm and theres often less of a reason for deep focus than in a movie scene

Have you seen the Netflix series "Altered Carbon?"

It's filmed with the Arri 65 I believe, fantastic color and HDR, yet really irritating the overuse of shallow DOF. I'm getting a headache thinking about it.

 

[ahalpert]

Have you seen the Netflix series "Altered Carbon?"

It's filmed with the Arri 65 I believe, fantastic color and HDR, yet really irritating the overuse of shallow DOF. I'm getting a headache thinking about it.

I love that show. I liked the look but I agree that sometimes it was too much. And in other cases it will be waaaay too much.

And if a high end DP has to choose shooting cropped on a FF camera or shooting with a proper S35 camera, what do you think they will choose?

 

[ahalpert]

As far as 2/3...no, they won't because they have a purpose. S35 has less of a purpose, and eventually none. That's the point.

Sensor size is a spectrum not a binary. Inasmuch as S35 has advantages, it has a purpose. If people determine that FF has inherently higher IQ then maybe it will triumph. But I dont think that's the case, other than regarding sensitivity.

 

[Tom Roper]

I love that show. I liked the look but I agree that sometimes it was too much. And in other cases it will be waaaay too much.

And if a high end DP has to choose shooting cropped on a FF camera or shooting with a proper S35 camera, what do you think they will choose?

I don't know, I really don't. If I had to guess and he's high end DP, isn't he going to choose S35 over FF? I take no position whether S-35 is "proper" or not, but I can't imagine too many wanting to make a FF rig the first choice.

 

[Tom Roper]

On the other hand, if Mr. High End DP has a choice of an Arri 65 I assume he's going to take it, which as a movie goer is harder for me to watch than S-35. I want to see some cinematic details, not just an exclusive focus on the subject with the background bokeh'd out. If he's going to shoot that way Lawrence of Arabia could be filmed in a cubby.

 

[ahalpert]

I don't know, I really don't. If I had to guess and he's high end DP, isn't he going to choose S35 over FF? I take no position whether S-35 is "proper" or not, but I can't imagine too many wanting to make a FF rig the first choice.

I'm not saying will he/she choose S35 over ff. Assume they've already chosen S35. Will he choose to shoot cropped on a FF camera or will they choose a proper S35 camera?

The argument others make is that a FF camera can become an S35 camera by cropping. But that's not really true, not without penalties

 

[ahalpert]

On the other hand, if Mr. High End DP has a choice of an Arri 65 I assume he's going to take it, which as a movie goer is harder for me to watch than S-35. I want to see some cinematic details, not just an exclusive focus on the subject with the background bokeh'd out. If he's going to shoot that way Lawrence of Arabia could be filmed in a cubby.

No, there are plenty of people turning down those choices.

Look at Brawley's tests for the great - blind camera/lens tests to determine which system created the most desirable aesthetic for the piece.

And then at the end of the day, he was mandated to use one he didnt choose.

Then he chose 12ks over milfs for his recent feature.

Real DPs are not as easily influenced by clickbait specs

 

[NorBro]

The argument others make is that a FF camera can become an S35 camera by cropping. But that's not really true, not without penalties

But that's that backwards thinking again...

Some of us are getting ready for iPhones to replace half of the world's cameras and work yet you're thinking about some questionable "penalties" that no one (0%) will be able to spot if it's done correctly inside the camera.

Talking about great high-resolution sensors with amazing images, not potatoes.

Have seen this time and time again going all the way back to the 2015 with the a7RII. You personally saw it on your S1.

These low-end cameras are perfectly fine in their S35 modes, so cinema cameras will undoubtedly have no trouble either.

 

[Less_is_more]

So NorBro wants magical full-frame. Clear enough, but unlikely in a GH6.

I’d like to know what any GH6 will do to GH5S prices. Dip or crash? I wasn’t watching this market when previous GH models arrived.

 

[Tom Roper]

I'm not saying will he/she choose S35 over ff. Assume they've already chosen S35. Will he choose to shoot cropped on a FF camera or will they choose a proper S35 camera?

The argument others make is that a FF camera can become an S35 camera by cropping. But that's not really true, not without penalties

For convenience and practicality alone he's going to shoot with a regular S35, not going to use S-35 crop from a FF camera. I can't see a marquee DP doing S-35 crop, no.

 

[ahalpert]

But that's that backwards thinking again...

Some of us are getting ready for iPhones to replace half of the world's cameras and work yet you're thinking about some questionable "penalties" that no one (0%) will be able to spot if it's done correctly inside the camera.

Talking about great high-resolution sensors with amazing images, not potatoes.

Have seen this time and time again going all the way back to the 2015 with the a7RII. You personally saw it on your S1.

These low-end cameras are perfectly fine in their S35 modes, so cinema cameras will undoubtedly have no trouble either.

The S1 was noticeably softer and noisier in crop mode. The red scarlet was likewise waaaay noisier in crop mode. Among other issues, I believe that the aa filter is not optimized for cropping

"Backwards thinking" - I dont appreciate your demeaning characterizations. If you disagree, just make your point