GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

Ron Evans said:
I would like 8K. I shoot now with GH5 and GH5S UHD 60P both fixed on tripods in the theatre. I then edit in HD and create both Bluray and DVD. 8K camera would mean I could shoot with one camera and get closer in for crop/zoom/pan etc which is what I do now but with two cameras at different framing. I have no interest in 8K output.
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Lens issues would sneak in eventually as you use only the corner portion of a lens that may already struggle to solve 8k of resolution. All lenses are softer in the corners and the more the lens is stopped down the worse they tend to get. Using 8k for a HD corner is likely not going to look spectacular. To be fair you likely wouldn't use the far corners but you could still see an odd unbalance of softness on one side of the frame vs the opposite side.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Lens issues would sneak in eventually as you use only the corner portion of a lens that may already struggle to solve 8k of resolution. All lenses are softer in the corners and the more the lens is stopped down the worse they tend to get. Using 8k for a HD corner is likely not going to look spectacular. To be fair you likely wouldn't use the far corners but you could still see an odd unbalance of softness on one side of the frame vs the opposite side.
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I agree. I had a friend with the same idea, setup a 4k mirrorless in a fixed position and zoom in post. Resolution isn't a substitute for the proper optical lens reach. Fine for the wide shot to shoot loose so no one gets out of the frame and tighten it up after. The proper camera for theater is a camcorder with a servo zoom with plenty of reach.
 
having a flatter field curvature and good corner-to-corner performance would help.

anyway, cropping close shots from a wide is obviously a compromise. a hit in quality is to be expected. but if you end up with usable close shots of 2 or 3 actors across the entire stage with a single camera and op, that could be a win. a servo camera will only get one shot at a time and lose time reframing. you will easily miss stuff.

i'm not saying i'd necessarily go the 8k route, but it opens up intriguing possibilities.
 
I'd be very interested if it had an improved and updated sensor, video & stills specific mode switch (like Fuji) , tally lights and a large quality VF in the vein of a GX9- as in it tilts up.

Of course what I really want/ wanted was the DC-BHG1 with a quality, (much less any LCD panel...), improved sensor, tally lights, video centric menu system and a form factor that is overall much more video/motion centric form factor, than a GH6 will ever be capable of.

The austere, bare bones, minimalist, stripped down DC-BHG1 is a head scratcher. While Panasonic touts it's versatility, it is really lacking in the OMB operator realm IMO. It definitely seems to be weighted in favor of studio and streaming applications. At this point Panasonics M43 lineup is two versions of the same problem- cameras that are compromised for cine/video/motion work. Albeit , compromised for different reasons.

Here's hoping for a AF100 successor or a decidedly video centric GH6 to come out in the near future. ;-/. For now, I'll continue on with my beloved GH5.
 
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Interested? Yes. Hopeful for enough improvements to make me buy one? Unlikely.

There are 3 major downfalls from the GH5: poor dynamic range, poor color science, and poor auto-focus. Not sure if Panasonic will - or can - fix any of them.

While color science is subjective, now that I've had a chance to directly compare the Panasonic look to the Olympus, it's simply no contest if you are seeking to use an image straight out of camera. I've shown comparison footage to several people in the last 3 weeks, and every single one of them - from industry pros to "normal" friends - picked the Olympus in a blind test.

As in all of them. The image from the Oly is so superior to the GH5 it is borderline shocking. The Oly colors & grain looks filmic, while the GH5 looked wooden and "video-y" by comparison. Being better on paper - which the GH5 obviously is - only means something if the results are correspondingly better too. For my uses, the GH5 is vastly inferior to the EM1 Mii/iii.

I'd actually rank Panasonic dead last at this point in color science now that Sony is implementing new colors on their latest bodies. The Panny colors aren't "bad" but they don't sing either. In any event, they do not appear to have not changed in years. The GX85 has the exact same color science as the GH5. If there's no improvement to the color science in new Panasonic bodies, it means a $200 5 year old plus camera will look virtually the same as the $2000 GH6. That would be a hard pass for me.

Dynamic range is of course a challenge for any MFT sensor, and I suspect it's one area where MFT will simply never compete with full frame. That said, I'd say the DR on the GH5 is worse than the EM1 MII/III, or at the very least the Oly does better job making the DR seem more pleasing (again, using straight out of camera profiles). Neither has great DR or low light performance. If the GH6 uses the rumored 42 megapixel sensor, it's very hard to believe that either DR or low light performance would be noticeably better then the GH5. Could even be worse.

One thing that the Oly indisputably does better is with 8 bit video: shooting the sky or some other larger area in 8-bit on the GH5 invites a flurry of ugly blocking/banding. The 8-bit only Oly exhibits none of those banding issues in similar situations. Of course you can shoot 10 bit with the GH5... in fact, you pretty much have to if you're outdoors on a sunny day. Which is fine if you have a blazing computer, or have time. If you're doing quick turn around stuff, like youtube vlogs, the GH5 is lacking in this regard. The GH6 would have to make some fairly big improvements in this area to help attract more casual shooters.

And of course, the biggest issue of all, bad auto-focus. This is perhaps the most perplexing of all the issues, the single biggest issue keeping Panasonic in 6th place. Sony & Olympus have amazing AF while Canon & Fuji's can be hit or miss... but still light years ahead of Panasonic. That none of Panny's cameras have reliable AF is a millstone around their necks that will grow steadily heavier with each passing day.

One of the best things about the GH5 is it's ability to go anywhere to shoot anything. Yet b/c the AF is unusable, it eliminates a huge number of potential applications, thus severely limiting the appeal of the camera. From gimbals, to inexperienced shooters, to sports/events, good AF - like good IBIS - is a feature that once used is never forgotten. Younger shooters in particular are likely to simply pass on any camera w/o good AF. Simply put, no reliable AF equals no serious interest from many potential buyers.

But hey, if Panasonic can sort out it's AF and color science, heck yeah I'd consider buying one. Panasonic has the best menus, are the least glitchy, & have the most features - but there are some serious issues that simply must be addressed if the GH6 is going to be a worthy successor in 2021.

Note that for me at least, 8K, 12 bit, and other flashier technical specs mean nothing if the more basic stuff is not seriously upgrayyedd.

Lastly, Olympus may be down, but they appear to not be out. Their EM series of cameras have been still-oriented up to now, yet still somehow make a prettier video then the GH5. If Olympus actually survives and deliver on their promise to concentrate on making better video SLRs, the GH6 may be in big trouble. Olympus has no higher end video segment to protect, and can concentrate solely on MFT....

Neither is true for Panasonic.
 
As far as colors many of these cameras have a sharpened, contrast, saturation look out of camera. So if you want a film look you need to get into grading and/or film with something like BMPK or C100-500 camera. Likewise most dsrl/mirrorless have trouble with DR and smooth gradations such as sky or even gradated light backgrounds, which is a function of compression, 8bit, and the in camera sharpening/contrast/saturation. These cameras are designed more for quick turn around, multi-purpose and are not a substitute for high end cinema cameras.

Independent of all that, I've found that the shooting conditions can either make or break a camera. Shoot in full sun, you will be unhappy with the DR. In low light, you'll be unhappy with the noise. Generally when you watch review videos or higher end pro work, they film in the optimal conditions and use lights or diffusion to help the DR/noise. If you film in unmodified conditions your camera won't perform like you want.
 
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ahalpert said:
having a flatter field curvature and good corner-to-corner performance would help.

anyway, cropping close shots from a wide is obviously a compromise. a hit in quality is to be expected. but if you end up with usable close shots of 2 or 3 actors across the entire stage with a single camera and op, that could be a win. a servo camera will only get one shot at a time and lose time reframing. you will easily miss stuff.

i'm not saying i'd necessarily go the 8k route, but it opens up intriguing possibilities.
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It has worked good for me in the theatre with the GH5 full stage or a little wider and the GH5S framed in to center stage. This way I miss nothing. I can crop /pan or mild zoom smoother than I could achieve manually ( I used to use a servo zoom camera ) with absolutely precise timing. Most times the lens is at about F4 ( set mainly by lens ramping to get the stage framing I want from shooting location ) with the GH5S having the Panasonic 14-140 and the GH5 with the 12-60. I do still have my wife use an AX100 to get really close if needed just to be sure. Most of the time however the whole show is taken from the GH5 or GH5S depending on what is happening on stage. I record into Ninja V on both cameras V-Log UHD 60P. Shutter is fixed at 1/60 shutter priority auto gain with a gain limit of 16db. Manual focus with touch focus in the first show segment with checking on the Ninja's. Metering is peak limit since it was introduced with AE shift to get in the range I want. Again checked with false colour etc on the Ninja's now. Once set it pretty much just records the show. I edit with EDIUS mainly.
 
I'm still interested in seeing what improvements the GH6 can make. In the meantime, the BGH1, and the Panasonic S5 have some possibilities. The BGH1 was what I was hoping for when the GH5s came out, and the S5 is nice because the color is a better match to the EVA1. To me, it doesn't matter how good a camera's autofocus is, if the lens breathes so much that it makes me nauseous.
 
Most people don't use AF in a manner which draws attention to focus breathing. (A lot of stills glass is controlled well.)

And if one finds his or herself in a difficult situation in which a lens is breathing so much that it's causing nausea (unless you're speaking metaphorically) then a human is most likely going to have trouble pulling that focus manually successfully and you'll end up with more out of focus shots than you'd like, so then what's worse?
 
Kevin Kelly said:
I'm still interested in seeing what improvements the GH6 can make...
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In technical terms, they can make a C300MKIII with an MFT sensor and sell it for $999. And some day they might. But, right now no one is disturbing the Sony-Nikon-Panasonic-Fuji-Olympus coalition. Except Canon. Which doesn't buy that many sensors from Sony (outside of the 1") and isn't controlled as easily. Besides, Canon has by far the largest share of the photo-video market and doesn't have the need to be controlled by the lightweights. And it's releasing model after model while others are twiddling their thumbs. But, if Sony chooses to respond to Canon - and, off rumors, they feel they have no choice - then the entire industry has to pick up the momentum as well.

PS. Sony's anticipated response to R5 is something with 50 MPX and 8K for ~ $4,500-$5,000. And no overheating problems. FX-6 should be out shortly as well.
 
DLD said:
In technical terms, they can make a C300MKIII with an MFT sensor and sell it for $999.
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So while everyone is struggling to be profitable at all, you believe they can halve their prices – in a relatively price-inelastic market niche – and thrive? How would that work?

I think a GH6 can sell well if Panasonic gets the price and details right and includes at least one marquee feature that captures the imagination.

However, I’m amazed how many video shooters, like stills shooters, have a fixation on ‘full-frame’ sensors. In video this makes even less sense because the best video – cinema – has long been made with sensors smaller than that (and not meaningfully bigger than the GH5S sensor).
 
Less_is_more said:
So while everyone is struggling to be profitable at all, you believe they can halve their prices – in a relatively price-inelastic market niche – and thrive? How would that work?...
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The market is quite elastic or Pocket 4K/6K wouldn't be leading the top of the sales charts upon their releases. Pocket 4K is now $1,300. Could GH-6 be sold at that price and be profitable? I say, given the margins, absolutely. Could it skip on some features and be sold for $1,000? I say, obviously.

Sony's A6400 is $900 APS-C with great auto focus. Give it a 10-bit codec and it'll fly off the shelves. And the 10-bit codec is mostly in the software anyway.
 
BTW, price elasticity is the main reason for GH-4 and GH-5 being so popular to begin with. The two models offered a superior video value when FS-700 with the external Convergent Design Odyssey 7Q was around $10,000 combined (more, when the costs of the SSD's is taken into account). GH-4 was $1,700.
 
Whether there’s much price elasticity depends on your perspective, I suppose. Compared to high-end cine gear: very elastic. Compared to compact stills cameras (where I’m coming from): not so much.

Good point about the Sony ɑ6400 price. The fact remains, for whatever reasons, that Panasonic isn’t making much money on cameras. Hence their willingness to take an enormous gamble on magical full-frame (which must have a negligible chance of success in the long run, since everyone else is also betting on magical full-frame. I think they should double down on Micro Four Thirds, including a GH6, and explain to customers why magical full-frame is another arbitrary size rather than, in fact, magical).
 
Full-frame isn't magical anymore...once ARRI made the move it became the standard.

I think the other companies knew this was coming hence the push for it 2-3-4 years before them.

S35 will still have a place for several years, but the appeal and transition to a full-time full-frame future is undeniable.
 
NorBro said:
Full-frame isn't magical anymore...once ARRI made the move it became the standard.

I think the other companies knew this was coming hence the push for it 2-3-4 years before them.

S35 will still have a place for several years, but the appeal and transition to a full-time full-frame future is undeniable.
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BS. Full-frame and S35 will coexist
 
Open up that noggin...again. lol

That's what the same kind of thinking thought about 16mm and 35mm film.

And HD and 4K TVs.

And 4:3 and 16:9.

___

Filming in S35 crop modes will coexist, but S35 sensors won't (or barely).
 
I agree with NorBro. If not for anything else, simplified supply chains and associated costs.

Every year we see a decrease in the barriers to FF sensors. The CPU processing and heat required to run them, required body sizes to accommodate such, etc. When there becomes virtually no downside to a larger sensor, and only upsides, and cost begins to stabilize, who would ever choose S35? S35 is sort of an awkward spot. It doesn't get you into smaller lenses like m43 does. It simply makes more sense to create FF sensors with an S35 crop mode to accommodate those who wish to work and think in such a way, or leverage certain specific lenses.

I am wondering if M43 has a longer term place in the market. It does seem to be an interesting spot between mobile and high end FF. I am not afraid to sell off all my M43 gear and abandon ship, that's not why I haven't. I actually REALLY hope it sticks around, especially after my last trip to Indonesia. I tell you, traveling small and light with a kit of M43 glass and a couple bodies all as carry on, and working in the field with such a lightweight lens system, and being able to achieve stabilized extreme telephoto in such a breezy handheld package... you just can't do that on the FF mirrorless bodies, not in the same way. M43 lens are just so much more compact.

If m43 disappears soon, it won't be for lack of utility, it will be for lack of profit due to a smaller niche market. Ironically, S35 is probably a bigger market... but I just think it lacks an utility vs FF/M43.
 
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