GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

Peter C. said:
That's a very high end setup. The PZ 28-135 interesting but I'd be leery in theater work. My last shoot I was limited to one location towards the back 90ft away. A setup like that would not have enough reach. I've seen on occasion people using cinema cameras to film theater so I know it's possible. It usually involves multiple camera ops knowing what to do. That can get expensive and tricky finding dependable people who can pull off what's necessary with in a tight budget.

You're right that theater work requires a lot of concentration. You need to understand, and anticipate what going to happen and react quickly in a smooth manner. I prefer cameras with large dof so I can concentrate on panning, zooming and keeping the subject in frame.

I don't want to derail this thread but I do enjoy hearing about other approaches.
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This was off-off-broadway (or was it off-off-off-...). Small theater, I was about 10 feet from front of stage and a few feet above it. So 135 FF was not too shabby of reach, and there was a matching camera/lens on the other side of the stage as well. But yes, without even looking up your camera specs, I'm sure that you have massively more lens range

The FX9 autofocus actually worked really well and it seemed like the director wanted shallow DOF. I don't know if it's the right choice for everything, and I wish I had more experience with the autofocus settings on that camera

like I said, I think this guy just bought in to his system. It seems like he thought about it smartly. But I have no idea if it will prove to be smart economics in the long term. Certainly, I wasn't getting a great rate. (My "winter" rate. I mean, it was ok for a half-day, if you believe in those.) Whether that means that he pocketed a pretty penny at our expense or that he's not making much either, I don't know.
 
ahalpert said:
It was not me. I have never searched b&h sales rankings to find out what is selling well because I don't care
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I was joking. I thought it was obvious. Now say, 'Aye-aye, captain".

As to AF, or any other pertinent feature, that's the point. If you can get a piece for a stated price with that feature, there's really no sense in paying the same price for a different piece without it. Granted, no two cameras in the same price range have the same set of features - a clever cartel crippling, perhaps, aka CCCP - but quality AF is something one gets in the higher end cameras. Horses for courses noted but chances are a more universal camera can get one more jobs, won't get outdated as quickly and will save both time and money in the long run.
 
ahalpert said:
This was off-off-broadway (or was it off-off-off-...). Small theater, I was about 10 feet from front of stage and a few feet above it. So 135 FF was not too shabby of reach, and there was a matching camera/lens on the other side of the stage as well. But yes, without even looking up your camera specs, I'm sure that you have massively more lens range

The FX9 autofocus actually worked really well and it seemed like the director wanted shallow DOF. I don't know if it's the right choice for everything, and I wish I had more experience with the autofocus settings on that camera

like I said, I think this guy just bought in to his system. It seems like he thought about it smartly. But I have no idea if it will prove to be smart economics in the long term. Certainly, I wasn't getting a great rate. (My "winter" rate. I mean, it was ok for a half-day, if you believe in those.) Whether that means that he pocketed a pretty penny at our expense or that he's not making much either, I don't know.
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For most jobs I shoot solo or no more than 1 camera op because the budget isn't big enough. Most clients have so much over head cost they can't pay you much or at all. Many jobs I solely rely on selling enough copies of the performance.

I believe my camcorder is 15x = 24-367mm zoom
 
Do you think it would be worth it to try and make something else out of the opportunity?

Some people may rent a higher-quality cinema camera (eat the cost) and at least once grab extra nice footage of maybe one of the better performances and have that footage for their portfolios which they could use to perhaps pursue better theater work.
 
filmguy...if you're still with us, check out this shot at 1 minute.

I was looking at some old bookmarks I had on another computer and found this Canon R5 one (which I probably used as an example on this forum two years ago).

Regarding the video below, I know he's using the best results in his edit and it's not every day you'll be filming bicyclists riding towards you at higher speeds, but it's just one example of a ridiculous tracking shot with very shallow DOF, and the potential possibilities you could have in much easier video production scenarios.

 
ahalpert said:
Maybe. My feeling is that AF isn't good enough that I'd want to use anything less than the best. Even the best isn't perfect
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Along those lines - I don't know if this is true, I haven't even used the Canon/Sony AF - I'd take the conclusion the opposite way. If the Canon/Sony AF is better but still not good enough to rely on in a mission critical shot, I can't use it for a mission critical shot. Thus it removes a big advantage. So if I am only using AF for shots I can re-take, I would still prefer better AF, but my use at this juncture would be more limited and thus the Panasonic implementation for use on a certain subset of shots may be unideal but enough to begin dabbling.
 
NorBro said:
Do you think it would be worth it to try and make something else out of the opportunity?

Some people may rent a higher-quality cinema camera (eat the cost) and at least once grab extra nice footage of maybe one of the better performances and have that footage for their portfolios which they could use to perhaps pursue better theater work.
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This is how I think too. Maybe it's a personality thing. If you're really happy with your business setup, by all means stay the course, but I think a little bit of a hustler mindset goes far in this industry especially these days. I'd be taking advantage of the situation to try and get demo reel content to show what I can do, and use it to move up the ladder to bigger fish. Then again, that can be exhausting - so if you've found a niche you like that's comfortable and sustainable, life is also about a lot more than constantly trying to push for greener pastures... only you know. Not bad advice though!
 
NorBro said:
filmguy...if you're still with us, check out this shot at 1 minute.

Regarding the video below, I know he's using the best results in his edit and it's not every day you'll be filming bicyclists riding towards you at higher speeds, but it's just one example of a ridiculous tracking shot with very shallow DOF, and the potential possibilities you could have in much easier video production scenarios.
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Still with us. That's stupid impressive on the bicyclist, and if that could be obtained reliably and consistently, it is game changing. I get the sense that it is closer to consistent & reliable than not, which is exciting - especially for me as a OMB, being able to have a full time focus puller that never/rarely messes up built into the camera is a whole new world of production.

I am sold on quality AF. I am just not sold on moving platforms. I have no idea what is going on with Panasonic. Cartel, ineptitude, blind faith? I do know they said last year they believe they can surpass current implementations if they stay the course, which may be a load of horse manure because their hands are tied behind the scenes. But I'm also watching the stunning acceleration of machine learning algorithms and part of me is wondering if the GH6 won't be getting firmware updates during its life that improves things further, as it seems a large part of the problem may not be hardware based. The new venus engine is incredibly fast, and while I think it may need to even faster still to really reach parity (maybe in another generation), it also seems the software algorithm and techniques are a huge part of things. If they are training AI internally and software engineers are working on enhancing and improving the algorithm, which seems feasible, that may bode well for the future.

Who knows.

As far as options for me... yes you got me thinking about selling Milvus glass. I still remember the words you said 5 years ago when I was waffling on the purchase. "I mean, it's a lot of money, but it's not THAT much money, you know". It's about a $10k investment in glass. I looked on BH and there's like 17 reviews between Canon and Nikon mount, lol. Zero reviews on Amazon. Not much activity on ebay. I do think I'd be able to sell the set but it's obviously a niche thing to have a set like that. And I'm not sure I want to part with it VS just getting a few more native zooms on a future platform.

Seems easier though, if needed, to just get a body (Canon or Sony) + 24-70 lens (Sony GM or Canon RF) + EF adapters, maintain my manual primes, and then only need a single electronic AF killer zoom that covers most things. I'm going to table this pontification until the fall though after I know my numbers for the year and watch the market.
 
NorBro said:
I have a brand new RP if you want it. Got it as a gift for Christmas, still in the box.

Does have DPAF but only in HD.
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Oh, *NOW* I see what you're up. Kidding.

Well, if you want to pay it forward as a belated valentine's day gift for filmguy, I couldn't possibly say no to your generosity!:2vrolijk_08:
 
filmguy123 said:
Still with us. ... .
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Gott mit uns.

But my suggestion - unless new gear is urgently needed - is to rent GH-6 when it becomes available and test it under the conditions you're familiar with. Then rent R5, with or without Ninja 5, and R5C when available.

If my suggestions seem trite, I suggest you test Kartoshka. NorBro says that stuff - candy, not actual potatoes - is delicious. I say it's even better with good coffee.
 
filmguy123 said:
.

Seems easier though, if needed, to just get a body (Canon or Sony) + 24-70 lens (Sony GM or Canon RF) + EF adapters, maintain my manual primes, and then only need a single electronic AF killer zoom that covers most things. I'm going to table this pontification until the fall though after I know my numbers for the year and watch the market.
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This is what I told myself. "I'll just buy 1 Sony zoom lens for when I need AF." Now I've got 8. It's hard not to have AF as an option, especially with the joy of fast primes
 
Kartoshka - hook line and sinker, consider it done. Especially with coffee. My love language.

GH6 is for a sure a buy for me, my m43 lens collection is embarrassing (Leica 10-25, 50-200, 42.5; Lumix 12-35; Nokton 10.5, 17.5, 25, 42.5; Olympus 12, Olympus 75; Laowa 7.5, more...) - and the GH5 and GH5S need a replacement. And slot right up against my S1H/EVA1, so it's a purchase to balance out the whole package.

An AF camera from Canon/Sony would be additive for now, I think... with any gear sales being selling of existing lenses... R5C is out as I don't do non IBIS cameras anymore... especially if it's AF capable because the main point would by dynamic movement. Ninja V isn't out, but I really think external recording is nearing death unless you're after RAW or something. For me, at this point, it's got to be internal - and if I use an external screen it should be really light, like my SmallHD 502 or a Shinobi, powered by dtap to keep the weight nice.

Yeah, I'm high maintenance, lol. But man things are moving fast. Actually I think the A7SIII could handle all of that today - and I bet in another year we'll be even more spoiled for options.

ahalpert said:
This is what I told myself. "I'll just buy 1 Sony zoom lens for when I need AF." Now I've got 8. It's hard not to have AF as an option, especially with the joy of fast primes
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I can see that. Big time.

Ok, well, you all officially put AF back on my radar in a *big* way. My interest is piqued. Giving it more thought...

Gott verlässt uns.
 
filmguy, IIRC, I think you're a gamer so you think a little bit differently about the tech (in a great way), but the problem here is it's Japan competing with Japan, not America competing with Japan (Xbox/PlayStation), so that just doesn't work.

There are reasons why overheating and 4K crops and pixel-binned HD and Sony's 8-bit etc. etc. lasted for 10 years while Panasonic saw none of those problems.

They all appear to shine in different ways with a meticulous distribution of features.

Before any of this AF business with Panasonic, from 2014-2020 I was constantly asking where is the 4K full-frame (even 8-bit) from Canon. Canon!

It just never came until 2020 and the closest we got was with the 1DX Mark II at 1.3x.

Same for Sony...10 years of no 10-bit from Sony Corporation? Sony Corporation?!

Don't know anything about anyone, but it's all a game to me.
 
AF is super nice on the R6. Without a doubt it works very well and is nice to have. Key word nice to have.

I just don't buy that everyone needs or even wants that.

I will just leave this here. Its always good to put into perspective what is important. Yeah he had a crew in the past but since he has done a lot of stuff on his own. Most of this stuff is a nice to have and not a must have. 4k, 6k, 8k, IBIS, AF, auto exposure, high DR, whatever. My favorite line of his is there are nerds and there are artists. I myself fall a lot of times into the nard category and I'm trying hard to dial that back. I miss just having fun creating video and being innovative at ways to get it done.

 
A fantastic storyteller, but completely and utterly misses the point by comparing history and its success and justifying that against modern technology and new options.

Nerd or artist, all of us understand all of the above and what has taken place on earth, but we may want to do things differently because we can and not because we had no other choice like 10-20-30-40-50+ years ago.
 
Thomas Smet said:
My favorite line of his is there are nerds and there are artists.
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Sure, but to be fair I'd put the desire for AF into the "artist" category, where as pixel peeping codecs and bitrates (at least these days as we've hit dimishing returns) into the "nerd" category.

Me? I'm a nerdy artist. Boom. Problem solved!

NorBro said:
filmguy, IIRC, I think you're a gamer so you think a little bit differently about the tech (in a great way), but the problem here is it's Japan competing with Japan, not America competing with Japan (Xbox/PlayStation), so that just doesn't work.
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Yeah I'm not a non-believer in the cartel or anything. I'm more of a I dunno what to believe, but it does seem completely plausible and a good explanation of said matters. I can also buy the explanation that things are changing now because each company was guarding its higher end lines and with camera market going the way it is, they've sort of abandoned that and moving all in without fear of cannibalizing higher end cameras.

In either case, I suppose my theory fits into *either* - just that even if Panny is blocked from the tech, they may be able to brute force is through sheer machine learning intelligence, and that seems to be at this point happening on the software end more than the hardware end (its a both and, but I think the roadblock at the moment seems to be the AI is still a bit too dumb... the good news being that is code and can be updated via the air). The way that is progressing right now is mind bending (see DLSS, photo searching, voice recognition, etc.). It's improving at an exponential rate.

Well, I certainly would not bet on that just coming for free via firmware , as even if possible it may well be saved to sell new hardware, I'm just pontificating. And more so wondering if by the time I went through the hassle of swapping platforms if I'd get one year in and Panasonic comes out with their next DFD camera where the AI caught up and it just works.

So I'll wait it out a bit longer, mostly because things are still slow right now...
 
Wanted to rewrite my post and combine two thoughts.

First, Sony's AF is AI-based (Canon's too, along with deep learning), so the great technology is there for the taking...

___

Second...

filmguy123 said:
Sure, but to be fair I'd put the desire for AF into the "artist" category, where as pixel peeping codecs and bitrates (at least these days as we've hit dimishing returns) into the "nerd" category.
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After working more & more with REDCODE - and I said this a few times already - I really love this sensor and how it handles mixed lighting.

The more I think I know, the less I do! :evil: And I'm going to post footage soon, few weeks.

These subtle nuances which ultimately add up to creating higher-end looks (which of course includes higher dynamic range) are really important.

So in the grand scheme of our combined nerdiness, I do think pixel peeping and many codecs and bitrates will blend together on YouTube, but I really do see a strong argument for RAW. Not marketing RAW - but lots of substantial sensor data from all of these beautiful and powerful chips that are able to see more closer to how our eyes see the world.
 
What an absolute wan_ker - a clueless ignorant fu_ck.

Yep I started on slide film koda 64 too. I shot heaps of tmax whatever..

Film often has a wider DR than digital - look how those highlights hold on those classic films.

People shoot digital raw to try and get close to film.. not because they are too dumb to use film

DR, always you need to control it. WIth some film that means a 10k into the shadows. If some digital doesnt need that its just good for the environment.. its not sloppy film making

What a n_ob if digital brings visual story telling to those that cant afford a 10k thats fine.

Digital is the 'simple tool', the charcoal stick not film.





Thomas Smet said:
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