AFTER CLASS - snodart & Tim Young

[Tim Young]

At about TC 4:26 would have liked to see a rack focus to Eric.

thanks for all the comments guys. robert, thanks for being so specific. about the rack focus, a few others have mentioned it as well. we discussed it and i think we shot it, but we ultimately decided not to use it. we wanted to keep the audience's focus on the just-smashed egg, and maybe keep them wanting to see eric's face, but not allow them to until after the line about "dirt in the face", when it goes back to that same shot, but this time focused on eric's face with the egg out of focus. we wanted to save showing eric's face and feeling his sadness until after the teacher's line. i was operating the camera at that time, and it felt a bit forced to me to rack to his face right away. it seemed like more of a "reaction shot", forcing the audience to interpret and feel his immediate reaction, instead of being able to react on their own. the other thing was that my first instinct was to rack, but i felt like it was racking for the sake of racking, just because i had two subjects in two different focal planes. i wanted to resist the urge to do it just because we could, because i thought not doing it was a stronger choice for story. i liked the idea of revealing his face after the final disapproving line from the teacher, to show that even after everything the teacher's said about eric's supposed bad behavior, his first concern isn't what kind of trouble he's in, or the teacher's threats and disapproval, it's still the egg.

that said, i think a rack would have looked cool, and you may be right, it may have worked better. thanks again for taking the time to give such thoughtful comments.

 

[Tim Young]

I really liked when the music changed when the teacher enters the room.

thanks! i should have mentioned earlier that the music was performed and arranged by a friend of mine named kaycee parker, who is a violinist who plays with a local symphony. she's amazingly talented. i multitracked her and added some concert hall reverb, and i was really happy with what i think it added to the story.

 

[jontuttle]

Hey guys. Great job on this one. I thought everything was top notch. The lighting was great. Go homemade China Ball! The shots seemed well planned and well executed. The planning really came through because no edit felt out of place. The coloring was beautiful. The sound was very well done. The voices felt warm and never harsh. Kudos for working with kids. Not the easiest thing to do. I really liked the acting. Concannon did great as did the boy and little girl. I really didn't feel David's acting was over the top at all. I have had my fair share of encounters with christian/catholic school teachers and if anything he could have gone further. I would have like to have seen the boy have a few more lines. The piece didn't need more from him, I just think he did great and would have liked to see more. I didn't find much of a resolution. I felt as if I stumbled into the middle of it and really liked what I saw but had to take off and didn't get to see the rest. I would love to see this made into a feature. You could take the short to someone and ask for money to make the rest and I bet you would get it. Great work. It's one of my favorites.

 

[Finnian]

I really enjoy this film, it was right up my alley. One of the things that I feel this piece does really well is share a story instead of tell it. It's very much open to interpretation if viewed by people from different backgrounds. I think good dramaic filmmaking should always try to inform through empathy rather than gratuitous exposition.

This film spoke to me about the some struggles we face societally right now. The manufactured battle between religion and science. This kid seems to be a budding Darwin and his impulses and curiosities aren't supported by the culture he's being brought up by. This is great drama to me.

The performances were solid. I'm not sure where you found these kids but they did a fantastic job keeping me caring about their situation. They worked well in the period look and framework of the film. Very nice work overall.

 

[wallachiaproductions]

remarkable acting by the 2 children, i feel that their "cuteness" has impacted a little unfairly on the actor playing the teacher. The teacher had the major speaking role and i feel the script let him down a little.

It was beautifully shot, as a viewer i noticed NO lights reflected in windows or glass, the short had a beautiful atmosphere.

Something along the path of the two children walking away and the young boy showing her an unbroken egg with the lines "this is what jesus made" or something would have been a nice contrast with what the teacher had been saying and would also have made more of an impact maybe.

Overall i enjoyed it, congratulations to all involved.

Mr. Snodgrass, you may have a major acting star amongst your brood!

 

[ignatius]

This was a great flick, I really enjoyed it. The score was incredible, the acting was fantastic. If I had to come up with a criticism, it'd be a general one, maybe the execution of the teacher character (from a writing standpoint) could have been worked on a little more, just to polish his overall monologue into sharper points, a little more sculpting of his character. But extremely well done, overall. I loved the location, too, and your color choices.

 

[AmbassadorTex]

Overall, I thought this was a case of some great technical facility (acting, lighting, camera work, sound) being misled by a trite, shallow, and mildly mean-spirited story and sensibility.

Great foley work, lighting in the opening exterior is very cool - lots of dappling in the sunlight/shade patches...same kind of interesting patches in the school room. Nice consistency of color from ext. to int. without losing the sense of different texture from outdoors to indoors. Great kids. Did I mention the great foley work?...actual jealousy on my part, here, b/c it's something we strive to do better. Would've liked to see you explore more of the room b/c I think you really caught a distinct atmosphere...felt like we were locked into 2 setups and I wanted to experience more of the space.

Now for the big howevers...
> Bartok Strings at Mr. Nelson's entry - c'mon, almost signals parody...but maybe you wanted to use something so cliche to emphasize a kid's perspective? I suspected where this was headed, but hoped to be surprised.
> Look of Mr. Nelson = caricature, and an overused one at that.
> The line "mockery of me" seems to have some importance, but we don't ever get a sense of why this has become a personal thing b/t Nelson and the kid.
Similarly, not sure why this is throwing "dirt in the face of all that" he believes.
Fair enough - you only have 6 minutes, but even one line could hint at something.

>Finally, the use of "Amazing Grace" - - I can't escape the sense that you're trying to get some kind of profundity on the cheap. Are you trying to bring the lyrics of the song into ironic counterpoint with the events of the film? If so, you'd need to hear the lyrics. If not...why use it?

In general, you assume too much. You trade on the angry, unforgiving, sadistic, apparently-fundamentalist Christian stereotype without doing any of the actual work to build a character. His final, sadistic act is bizarre for someone so supposedly dedicated to rules and rigid codes of behavior - but that's OK...we are supposed to recognize "the type" and just roll with the assertion that the outward presentation (upright man of God) is merely a front for something else (petty and controlling evil).

The problem is, by counting on the stereotype to do your work for you, you ensure that nobody doubts for 1 second that this guy, who we've seen so many times, is going to destroy the egg...which just might represent the "soul"?...

Great tools on display here, but the story and characterization is unworthy of them.

 

[snodart]

Thanks for the new comments everybody.

Beautifully shot movie enjoyed it.
I know this has already been said but, I think if David's part was just a bit shorter it would have been better.. and trust me thats beans cuz this is a really good movie.

Thanks Michael. After spending so much time with the story and the edit, I remember telling Tim that I was starting to feel like our short was just about some guy yelling. It is all still so pounded into my brain that I haven't been able to get a "fresh" look at it (probably won't be able to for a long time). We relied a great deal on the dialog of Mr. Nelson to expose his inner struggle. At any rate, I do wonder if this made Mr. Nelson come across too strong.

...I didn't find much of a resolution. I felt as if I stumbled into the middle of it and really liked what I saw but had to take off and didn't get to see the rest. I would love to see this made into a feature. You could take the short to someone and ask for money to make the rest and I bet you would get it. Great work. It's one of my favorit.

Thanks Jon. I am a big fan of short stories, many of which tend to end unresolved. Tim and I both wanted to try and make this short have that feeling to some degree... just an interesting segment in time that provokes some thought. We are far from being ready for a feature, but in time...

I really enjoy this film, it was right up my alley. One of the things that I feel this piece does really well is share a story instead of tell it. It's very much open to interpretation if viewed by people from different backgrounds. I think good dramaic filmmaking should always try to inform through empathy rather than gratuitous exposition.

I love what you have said here, "share a story instead of tell it" and "open to interpretation". One of my goals (and I'm pretty sure that I can speak for Tim here as well) is to avoid handing the viewer the information. I love the idea of a story that has some room for the viewer to fill in the spaces and formulate some of their own conclusions.

Mr. Snodgrass, you may have a major acting star amongst your brood!

Wallachiaproductions (thats not easy to type), thanks for the comments... and the above is a scary thought!

If I had to come up with a criticism, it'd be a general one, maybe the execution of the teacher character (from a writing standpoint) could have been worked on a little more, just to polish his overall monologue into sharper points, a little more sculpting of his character. But extremely well done, overall. I loved the location, too, and your color choices.

Thanks ignatius. We spent a good deal of time on Mr. Nelson since we knew much of the story would be ridding on his words and actions. Of course we are still novice story tellers so this was a big challenge for us. Great comments, thanks.

Great foley work, lighting in the opening exterior is very cool - lots of dappling in the sunlight/shade patches...same kind of interesting patches in the school room. Nice consistency of color from ext. to int. without losing the sense of different texture from outdoors to indoors. Great kids. Did I mention the great foley work?...actual jealousy on my part, here, b/c it's something we strive to do better. Would've liked to see you explore more of the room b/c I think you really caught a distinct atmosphere...felt like we were locked into 2 setups and I wanted to experience more of the space.

Thanks for the comments. The foley work is all Tim's doing and I agree, he did a great job. You make a great point about exploring more of the room. I think this would have added a good deal to the story. We did try this to some extent, but it just didn't seem to work with the flow that we had (with more time, it probably could have been worked in though).

Now for the big howevers...
> Bartok Strings at Mr. Nelson's entry - c'mon, almost signals parody...but maybe you wanted to use something so cliche to emphasize a kid's perspective? I suspected where this was headed, but hoped to be surprised.
> Look of Mr. Nelson = caricature, and an overused one at that.
> The line "mockery of me" seems to have some importance, but we don't ever get a sense of why this has become a personal thing b/t Nelson and the kid.
Similarly, not sure why this is throwing "dirt in the face of all that" he believes.
Fair enough - you only have 6 minutes, but even one line could hint at something.

>Finally, the use of "Amazing Grace" - - I can't escape the sense that you're trying to get some kind of profundity on the cheap. Are you trying to bring the lyrics of the song into ironic counterpoint with the events of the film? If so, you'd need to hear the lyrics. If not...why use it?

In general, you assume too much. You trade on the angry, unforgiving, sadistic, apparently-fundamentalist Christian stereotype without doing any of the actual work to build a character. His final, sadistic act is bizarre for someone so supposedly dedicated to rules and rigid codes of behavior - but that's OK...we are supposed to recognize "the type" and just roll with the assertion that the outward presentation (upright man of God) is merely a front for something else (petty and controlling evil).

The problem is, by counting on the stereotype to do your work for you, you ensure that nobody doubts for 1 second that this guy, who we've seen so many times, is going to destroy the egg...which just might represent the "soul"?...

Great tools on display here, but the story and characterization is unworthy of them.

This stung a bit at first, but I'll be alright

I honesty did not expect Mr. Nelson to be seen as such a stereotypical character. I understand why, but I did not expect people to get hung up on it. It is interesting to me that this has seemed to almost anger a few.

I can see how the story can come across as though we were attempting to somehow display the errors of this type of person or perhaps even organized religion as a whole. This was most definitely NOT what we were tyring to do.

The character of Mr. Nelson in many ways was intended to BE the story. In my mind, we used the character of Eric and the bird egg as a crutch to help tell Mr. Nelson's story (and not the other way around).

We saw Mr. Nelson as a troubled man struggling with his own beliefs. His beliefs were pounded into him as a child. In attempt to find acceptance, he probably dedicated himself to going through the motions (chapel for example), with out ever understanding them or asking himself why. As a grown man he constantly needs to assure himself that he is comfortable with his own beliefs. Eric is a huge threat to Mr. Nelson. In Eric, Mr. Nelson sees a young boy enjoying and experiencing life... and exploring his own beliefs (or strengthening the ones he is being taught!). Maybe the boy will become a Buddhist or maybe he will grow up to teach in the same classroom as Mr. Nelson... it doesn't matter. The difference is that Eric will be confident in his beliefs whereas Mr. Nelson is not. For Mr. Nelson to accept the actions of the boy: drawing in a sketchbook, exploring the woods, etc., he would also have to accept that he is not confident in the path that led him to his current beliefs. Mr. Nelson would have to start all over to find the same confidence in his beliefs that Eric will most likely achieve some day. This would obviously be devastating to Mr. Nelson and everything that he believes. Out of fear, Mr. Nelson turns to anger in attempt to extinguish the flame.

Now, I know this might sound a little... hidden perhaps, but it is where we were headed with the story. We wanted the story to be treated like a short story... one that would need to be broken down in much the same way that a short story is broken down in a literature class.

I can't say that we accomplished this with every viewer. There seems to be a pretty good variety of takes on the meaning of the story (which to me is a great thing!). A few got stuck on the character of Mr. Nelson being too stereotypical, I think some cheered against organized religion, some had childhood flashbacks, some saw a segment in time, and perhaps there are a few that were offended by the character of Mr. Nelson (not a good thing).

I would love to hear more details as to what people took from the story.

Thanks again for the comments. They are a huge help in our growth as filmmakers!

 

[AmbassadorTex]

Thanks for the new comments everybody.

This stung a bit at first, but I'll be alright

This seems to be a general reaction to my comments. I'm writing exactly as I do when we make notes on our own films for editing, story, etc.
I was hoping that the positive things I stress off-set my blunt criticism...but it makes sense that the absence of a working relationship would make the negative sting...but that is how I'm used to critiquing our own stuff - ask my partners.

I think the stuff you did well is a lot harder and less common than the stuff that didn't work.

 

[snodart]

This seems to be a general reaction to my comments. I'm writing exactly as I do when we make notes on our own films for editing, story, etc.
I was hoping that the positive things I stress off-set my blunt criticism...but it makes sense that the absence of a working relationship would make the negative sting...but that is how I'm used to critiquing our own stuff - ask my partners.

I think the stuff you did well is a lot harder and less common than the stuff that didn't work.

No sweat AmbassadorTex. All comments are welcomed. Honestly, I just expected our story to work for more viewers than it has. Funny... with Hero-Fest, I didn't expect our entry (Cache) to do very well, and it placed second. I had higher hopes for After Class, but it hasn't been received as well as I was expecting. Either way, we are learning and all is well.

Thanks again for the comments.

 

[jeremytuttle]

Hey Guys,
I just watched this again and I think it is really working up on my list of favorites. I admit I'm more of a fan of movies that have a obvious beginning middle and end and after reading your back story of this short it is really starting to click for me and I think I like it a lot more. I wonder if people would have as much of a problem with the teacher if he was "scolding" the boy about missing baseball practise... not sure.

I do admit, maybe the smashing of the egg was a little much. I thought it worked but I could see how that could tip the scale for a lot of people. I still think this is one of David's best performances in this fest, good job David.

Any way. Can't wait to see what you guys do with the next Fest. Let us know if you do something we'd love to help out.

 

[Finnian]

I had higher hopes for After Class, but it hasn't been received as well as I was expecting. Either way, we are learning and all is well.

Thanks again for the comments.

I can relate to this. I've been surprised by some of the films that are getting the attention a film like this deserves.

I have to say again that this was far and away my most enjoyable viewing experience. The young actor you found is light years ahead of the competition IMO. I think a film that doesn't draw attention to itself is a blessing and a curse. Nothing flashy to see here, just real human drama. I wonder if the baggage people bring with them is keeping them from enjoying this film. I hope not.

 

[howard03]

I just happened upon this forum and have watched several of the short films in the competition - this one inspired me to register.

What a beautiful film! It brought me into same mindset as when I'm reading a good short story. The first glimpse of the egg was quite magical yet had a foreboding feel to it (quite apt as I found out!).

The lighting, the acting, the story - A+.

Within the restrictions of 6 minutes, you managed to create something that will stick with me much longer. Bravo!

 

[Texture]

Whoa, I'm starting to think this is the best fest I've witnessed yet.

So many good entries...

This is an incredibly well balanced piece for you guys. You always gotten my attention in the past, yet this shows real growth as film makers and story tellers.

Wow.

 

[snodart]

Thanks Finnian. I think that Middle Man and After Class are facing many of the same challenges in regards to being slice-of-life style dramas. Great, great work by the way.

Howard03, thank you for your inspiring comments. Oh, and welcome to DVXuser!

Texture, I agree. This fest has produced some great entries. Thanks for your comments. Nice website too.

 

[arielman]

OK I must say Thank You for tossing in another great short . I had 2 top shorts fighting for 1st and now I see this at the last minute >

What a powerful short !!
Here is a young boy skipping Church and is going to try and save one of GODs creatures and yet here is a man who goes to Church , gives the Lad s&&T and then Slams the Egg .
I Can't stop watching this it makes such a statement .
I haven't read any other post yet but you could open up a can of worms with this one .
The music , the way it was filmed , the great acting of the Young boy .
The teacher , the young girl ..
This is an amazing short !!!
Beautiful done .
Ian

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Great job guys.
I'm so behind on this fest as I just haven't had time to see anything pr respond much.
But of course you were one of the first I looked at of the few I did see because of your past work.
Again very top notch, thanks for sharing your work with the community here.

:beer:

Jack

 

[Mark Harris]

Here's a little something for you guys. I was working on what will be our final cut of Katrina, and saw this:

Bam, chinaball in the glasses

 

[Darkline]

HI

Sorry it's taken a while to talk about this one.

After 'The Seeing' I expected a techincally polished entry from you and thats what you delivered. It looked and sounded fantastic.

On top of that it was one of the more engaging and well-paced entries to the fest. The little kid was great and dialogue pretty smooth for the most part.

The lighting and 35mm adaptor added a lot to this short. I loved the sun-drenched feel you had going on. I would say structurally I left wanting more, but that's the only criticism I can put on this short. I guess that could be a good thing too, at no point did my attention waver, hooked from the start.

I was hoping for a bit more 'drama', but I understand what you were trying to do with this very subtle piece. Overall it's definately top tier in this fest. One of the few I would go back and choose to watch again.

Well done, a real solid entry here.

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

reflector in the glasses