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Hard decision for my EX1r... the nanoFlash, Gemini, or Ki Pro Mini

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    #16
    All sixteen-bit, linear PCM, sampled at 48KHz

    There would be little meaningful information coming out of a camera's audio in those extra 8 bits: 16 bits gives you 96dB of dynamic range anyway.

    Dave Shapton
    Atomos

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      #17
      Originally posted by David Shapton View Post
      All sixteen-bit, linear PCM, sampled at 48KHz

      There would be little meaningful information coming out of a camera's audio in those extra 8 bits: 16 bits gives you 96dB of dynamic range anyway.

      Dave Shapton
      Atomos
      Oh well, I was hoping you'd say 24 but that's cool. I think it was Mark/basspig who said he accidentally recorded a track 40 dB too low and brought it up with little if any quantization noise.
      Freelance Camera Operator/Editor/Photographer/Audio Dude

      Sony EX1 | Nikon D300 | Sennheiser EW100ENG G2 Wireless Kit | Home Recording Studio

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        #18
        Oh well, I was hoping you'd say 24 but that's cool. I think it was Mark/basspig who said he accidentally recorded a track 40 dB too low and brought it up with little if any quantization noise.
        Don't get me wrong here - I'm a fan of 24 bit and I used to record solo piano into a 24 bit DAW with incredible results! You could play a chord, sustain it, and you could still hear it clearly and undistorted after 30 seconds.

        16 bit is fine for most things, though.

        Dave Shapton
        Atomos

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          #19
          I seriously doubt that the Sony's mic pre's have the kind of low noise floor necessary to even benefit from a 24bit recording. 24bit makes some serious demands on everything else in the signal chain.
          FCP 7.0, PP 6, MacPro Octo 2.8, MBPro, EX1, MXO2, Sachtler FSB6

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            #20
            I would say from my experience with the Nanoflash that 24bit capture does make a difference. 24bit audio is one of the features I have come to really enjoy on the Nano. Even though I record through the camera the end audio file is a lot cleaner and has more dynamic range when I put it in Cakewalk Sonar to sweeten.

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              #21
              Originally posted by adamr316 View Post
              It is definitely a much better package on paper than the Ki Pro. The high wattage of the Ki was a big turn-off.

              I'd have to personally disagree, as the ki pro mini has onboard constant conversion between the hdmi input to sdi output, and the sdi input to the hdmi output. If you were to buy those converters alone separately that's a grand right there. Not to mention timelapse support, professional audio circuitry onboard with xlr connectors allowing direct balanced line in or mic/+48v, a built in webserver allowing complete config/setup/record trigger from a laptop/ipad/phone, and the huge thing, outboard playback. A huge reason I'm purchasing one is it doubles as an HD playback device, no more dragging the pc rig to the local theater/projection house for screening/review of high bitrate master copies

              All of the rigs I've rented/used that were to the point of using an outboard recorder already had a battery/outboard power system in place so I guess the power consumption isn't really a bother for me. I guess some people would still like the small run-n-gun package with an external recorder though. whatever floats your boat, or finds your lost remote!



              Originally posted by Bassman2003 View Post
              I would say from my experience with the Nanoflash that 24bit capture does make a difference. 24bit audio is one of the features I have come to really enjoy on the Nano. Even though I record through the camera the end audio file is a lot cleaner and has more dynamic range when I put it in Cakewalk Sonar to sweeten.

              Ahh, the placebo effect, what a beauty. The EX series internal audio processing is 16-bit, it pads the embedded sdi stream to 24-bit. Even if that wasn't the case, the dynamic range of the EX series audio circuitry is 87.6db (at line level input, I'm sure it's lower at mic level input), so it's not even pushing the limit of 16-bit's 96db.
              (9:38:44 PM) ngubbet: ROYGBIV 4:4:4:4:4:4:4

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                #22
                Originally posted by Fohdeesha View Post
                Ahh, the placebo effect, what a beauty. The EX series internal audio processing is 16-bit, it pads the embedded sdi stream to 24-bit. Even if that wasn't the case, the dynamic range of the EX series audio circuitry is 87.6db (at line level input, I'm sure it's lower at mic level input), so it's not even pushing the limit of 16-bit's 96db.
                Ahh, the rude effect. I know there is a difference from past projects but just to make sure I recorded a short amount with the EX-1 using internal and the Nano recording with a Peluso condenser mic. Imported the two files into my NLE with a 24 bit project setting and exported two separate 24 bit wave files. Also imported the internal EX file into a 16 bit project and exported a 16 bit wave file version. So I then put the two 24 bit files and the 16 bit file into a 24 bit project inside of Cakewalk Sonar 8 then proceeded to listen and adjust EQ. What I found was the 24 bit Nano file retained the most integrity as I pushed the EQ bands around and to their extremes. Overall the the first impression was that the three files are similar, and the 16 bit files sounded fine, but the 24 bit Nano file has more headroom and a bit more modelling and presence to use esoteric audio terms.

                Sure true 24bit processing would be the best (if only the Nano had its own preamps) but recording through the camera to 24bit it still shows up to some extent. (in my experience as I stated before)

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                  #23
                  Sorry if it came off as rude, that's definitely not how I meant it to sound! If you're hearing a difference, it must be something up in your post workflow, or maybe your DAW isn't properly converting everything to floating point for it's internal processing, that would explain why you can hear differences when adjusting a 16-bit vs 24-bit file, because they're exactly the same. like I said, the ex series has been very thoroughly tested, and does not have enough dynamic range to even hit 16-bit's limit. Even that's irrelevant though, as it's internal processing is 16-bit. it pads the extra bits when it embeds the audio into the sdi stream. It is the same thing that would happen if you imported your xdcam audio into your DAW, and exported it as a 24-bit file. Once again, sorry if my original post came off as rude
                  (9:38:44 PM) ngubbet: ROYGBIV 4:4:4:4:4:4:4

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                    #24
                    O.K. No worries on the perception as the internet is a tough medium. But I showed my workflow and it is pretty simple. Have you tried the same test and listened critically? I can see the tech reason behind your point but in practice the 24 bit Nano files have a little more.

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                      #25
                      Cool

                      Yeah, I deal with a lot of uncompressed capture so I'm almost always dealing with 24-bit files recorded from SDI. The definitive, mathematical test to see differences between audio sources is to phase them 180 degrees from each other, and then whatever output you get, is the difference between the files. I have done this with the xdcam source and sdi source, and the output was nil. I'm not doubting you're hearing differences, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with your worflow. What I believe is most likely happening is your DAW is not treating all the audio sources as floating point, so it's adjusting the 16-bit file in 16-bit space, and the 24-bit file in 24-bit space. I believed that all current DAWs do all calculations in floating point, but I've never used cakewalk so I can't comment. As for the exporting of the xdcam 16-bit to a 24-bit file via NLE, that could be the source of your problem. I'd never trust an NLE to upconvert audio bit depth.
                      Last edited by Fohdeesha; 04-02-2011, 08:51 AM.
                      (9:38:44 PM) ngubbet: ROYGBIV 4:4:4:4:4:4:4

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Fohdeesha View Post
                        I'd have to personally disagree, as the ki pro mini has onboard constant conversion between the hdmi input to sdi output, and the sdi input to the hdmi output. If you were to buy those converters alone separately that's a grand right there. Not to mention timelapse support, professional audio circuitry onboard with xlr connectors allowing direct balanced line in or mic/+48v, a built in webserver allowing complete config/setup/record trigger from a laptop/ipad/phone, and the huge thing, outboard playback. A huge reason I'm purchasing one is it doubles as an HD playback device, no more dragging the pc rig to the local theater/projection house for screening/review of high bitrate master copies
                        I guess some people would still like the small run-n-gun package with an external recorder though. whatever floats your boat, or finds your lost remote!
                        Granted, if you are using all those features, sure... However, if your goal is to SIMPLY record 4:2:2 10 bit via SDI w/16 bit audio, which is what I believe many want to achieve, this will do it at a low cost and requires a very uncomplicated method of achieving those goals.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Fohdeesha View Post
                          Cool
                          I agree, this is probably a software issue and the difference is not that big anyway. Sorry for the weirdness!

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                            #28
                            For me Atomos recorders are best of, LCD, smaller size and great codec
                            But if wanna go for big screen i prefer gemini

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