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    #46
    Originally posted by NorBro View Post
    Yeah, just a crazy part of the conversation altogether specifically because it's such a small difference in the amount of pixels missing.

    The bottom line is these are decisions made by people deciding this is this and that is that, and that's it.

    Visually - in a world where some think 2K cameras look amazing and some can't see a difference in 8K cameras - it is beyond mindless to analyze if 3840 is or is not true 4K compared to 4096.

    It only matters how it's made and what you have to deliver.
    Yeah but pixels and resolution are definitely not the same thing ..I wonder if you know what resolution is man ? my only point is that 3840 after debayer is no where near 4K .. you disagree ?
    Last edited by Donny 123; 05-10-2021, 12:25 AM.

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      #47
      What is 4K?

      What does that word mean to you?

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        #48
        Originally posted by NorBro View Post
        What is 4K?

        What does that word mean to you?
        Its either 4k of pixels eg 4k DCI on the sensor , or "true" 4k of resolution ,after debayer from a down sampled sensor greater than 4K .. the first is a bit of a cheat as to me all this 4K marketing and Netflix mindset is definitely implying 4k resolution .. which from a 4K sensor, its not of course .. but sure you could argue 4096 is 4K , but its misleading to say the least .. but to say 3840 is "absolutely 4K ".. I wouldn't .. its not in anyway shape or form .. marketing and production staff ,say that , Im just a bit surprised a DP would .. its 2688K !!! not even close .. thats all Im saying
        Last edited by Donny 123; 05-10-2021, 01:26 AM.

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          #49
          Originally posted by CharlesPapert View Post
          All of these numbers are virtually arbitrary. If UHD was 4096 across and DCI was cropped from that and both versions were presented side by side, it's incredibly unlikely anyone would detect the difference of like 100 pixels out of 4000, even projected in a theatre. Netflix calls 3840 UHD "true 4k"...why sweat it?!
          I thought Netflix demand 17-9 and not accept 3840 .. ? Ive shot corporate for them and even that they demanded 17-9 .. unless they are referring to down sampled 3840 from something like the fx9 ? that the only "true" 4k that Ive heard referred to ..
          Last edited by Donny 123; 05-10-2021, 01:51 AM.

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            #50
            Originally posted by JPNola View Post
            Then why are “ 3840x2160 ” and “ 4096x2160” referred to as aspect ratios?
            I have never once heard a fellow professional, until now, refer to either of those numbers as aspect ratios. They are resolutions and everyone I work with knows the difference.


            Originally posted by JPNola View Post
            Because my strength is not video engineering but shooting and lighting.
            Well, I guess that sets you apart from the rest of us who don't have those skills, but I really don't think these simple concepts of resolution and aspect ratios are rocket science, brain surgery, or require a degree in video engineering.
            Doug Jensen, Sony camcorder instructor
            HOW TO MAKE MONEY SHOOTING STOCK
            http://www.dougjensen.com/

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              #51
              Originally posted by Doug Jensen View Post
              I have never once heard a fellow professional, until now, refer to either of those numbers as aspect ratios. They are resolutions and everyone I work with knows the difference.




              Well, I guess that sets you apart from the rest of us who don't have those skills, but I really don't think these simple concepts of resolution and aspect ratios are rocket science, brain surgery, or require a degree in video engineering.
              Nothing in that post is in any way helpful or educative.
              Sachtler tripod user for 40+ years.

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                #52
                If resolution and aspect ratio are unrelated, then any given aspect ratio can be any given resolution. But I am being told that 4096x2160 cannot be 16x9.

                This chart, https://www.wearethefirehouse.com/as...io-cheat-sheet, links aspect ratios to specific resolutions, suggesting to me that aspect ratio and resolution do have something to do with each other and are not wholly unrelated to each other, as posited here in an earlier post.

                If true that aspect ratio and resolution are unrelated, a 4:3 aspect ratio could have a resolution of 4096x1716. Is that the case?

                Sony apparently think the two are related:

                “ Resolution and aspect ratio are terms used to describe the format and image you see on your television screen. In a television, these two values are related and one affects the other.”

                https://www.sony-latin.com/en/electr...icles/00105548


                Then there is this:

                “ I am sure some of you already know that the term "resolution" isn’t correct when it’s used to refer to the number of pixels on a screen. That says nothing about how densely the pixels are clustered. "Resolution" is technically the number of pixels per unit of area, rather than the total number of pixels. ”



                “simple concepts”? Well, that is matter of opinion. This writer characterized it as such:

                “ Conclusion – It’s is all a confusing mess.
                If you are not very technical, it is very likely that you are confused by so many technicalities. ”

                https://www.comtech-networking.com/b...0i-1080p-mean/
                Sachtler tripod user for 40+ years.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by JPNola View Post
                  Nothing in that post is in any way helpful or educative.
                  I'm sorry, were you under the impression that I am obligated to teach you video production 101? These are simple concepts that everyone else gets, even by people who's strengths, like yours, are with "shooting and lighting". You don't have to be one us guys who can't shoot and light to understand this stuff. You have been given plenty of excellent advice on this thread from many people, yet you want to blame others that you can't understand it. That's not our fault so there's no need for your attitude.

                  Originally posted by JPNola View Post
                  IBut I am being told that 4096x2160 cannot be 16x9.
                  You're being "told" this? Do you think it is an opinion? Simple 5th grade math shows it is an indisputable fact. Resolution and aspect ratio have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. It cannot be stated any simpler than that.
                  1920x1080 and 3840x2160 are both 16:9. Bu they are not the same resolution. Get it?
                  Last edited by Doug Jensen; 05-10-2021, 09:45 AM.
                  Doug Jensen, Sony camcorder instructor
                  HOW TO MAKE MONEY SHOOTING STOCK
                  http://www.dougjensen.com/

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                    #54
                    In no manner did I say you are obligated. I said your post was not helpful. But that isn’t saying you are obligated to be helpful. If the failure of your effort to educate frustrates you, walk away. Or do better at your effort to educate. Saying “this is all SO simple!” and suggesting the student is stupid isn’t successful educating. It helps not at all.



                    Why would math dictate that the resolution 4096x2160 cannot be 16x9 when YOU said “One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.”? Now resolution does have something to do with aspect ratio? Which is it- nothing to do with each other or a “indisputable” relation determined by 5th grade math?
                    Sachtler tripod user for 40+ years.

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                      #55
                      They are related as mentioned multiple times in this thread...

                      ___

                      And in this conversation, based on the context, only the total number of pixels matter because we cannot control the arrangement of pixels in cameras.

                      If we're speaking about one source (one camera), the difference we see with our own eyes and what we work with in post is determined by the final number of total pixels the cameras are providing us in the files we work with.

                      Since the history of digital cameras, the easiest and most tried-and-true method to understand this is by zooming in and seeing the difference in the data the cameras provide us in the form of a computer file.

                      Now when you start comparing resolutions between different sensors from different companies, it's not as straightforward to understand because the processes in creating that data become more complicated across dozens of systems as cameras not only account for pixels but also colors and any potential visual distortions such as noise particles.

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                        #56
                        The proportions are really important to understand...

                        Width x Height/Length.

                        1920x1080 and 3840x2160 and 7680x4320 are all 16x9 because the math is perfect.

                        Width:
                        1920 x 2 = 3840
                        3840 x 2 = 7680

                        Height/Length:
                        1080 x 2 = 2160
                        2160 x 2 = 4320

                        ___

                        But when you change the numbers for the width or height/length, those proportions change.

                        So 1920 x 1080 is 16:9.

                        Bump up the width to 2048 and keep the height at 1080, and 2048 x 1080 is now 17:9.

                        ___

                        Now if you take 2048 and multiply it by 2, you get 4096. And if you take 1080 and multiply it by 2, you get 2160.

                        So 4096 x 2160 is also 17:9, and it's why your camera refers to it as 17:9.

                        As far as cameras are concerned, when all of this stuff was being made and used, they needed to create a system/standard so people can communicate about the information and learn and exchange knowledge.

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by JPNola View Post
                          Why would math dictate that the resolution 4096x2160 cannot be 16x9
                          as·pect ra·tio : The ratio of the width to the height of an image or screen.

                          ra·tio: The quantitative relation between two amounts showing the number of times one value contains or is contained within the other.
                          Doug Jensen, Sony camcorder instructor
                          HOW TO MAKE MONEY SHOOTING STOCK
                          http://www.dougjensen.com/

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                            They are related as mentioned multiple times in this thread...
                            Yes, but I was told the following by someone who professionally teaches these things:

                            “ This discussion boils down to two concepts: 1) Resolution and 2) Aspect Ratio.
                            One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.
                            Why is that so difficult to understand?”

                            I am trying to understand how it is true that resolution and aspect ratio have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, which I am told should be easy to understand.

                            I’m being told both: that they have no relation AND they have an irrefutable mathematic relation.
                            Sachtler tripod user for 40+ years.

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                              #59
                              lol. Cats and dogs over here.

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                                #60
                                ‘Why are you so stupid as to not see that resolution and aspect ratio have NO relation??”

                                then..

                                “Why are you so stupid as to not see that math dictates a resolution be an exact aspect ratio?? A 5th grader could understand it! Sheesh!”


                                Sachtler tripod user for 40+ years.

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