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They finally gave us FSRAW support on the 5" Ninja V!

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  • cyvideo
    replied
    Not wanting to put a damper on anything but be aware of the limitations of the 12-bit Linear RAW output of the 700 and 7. Really at 12-bit Linear there just aren't enough code values to handle the output range of a sensor that is capable of up to 14 stops. I've worked with it and found in lower light or shadow areas that it can be a bit of a pain to get a decent grade out of it. Because of that experience, I never went the RAW path with the FS7.

    Alister Chapman explained this pretty well some years back in a response to a poster's question as to why he was having problems with the 12-bit Linear RAW with his Odyssey Q7 so I'll guide you to his comments, facts and figures. I don't think he would mind. If interested the range of posts can be followed at the link below. As DJ said there is no comparison when comparing 12-bit Linear to Sony's 16-bit RAW on the R5 recorder. If I wanted Sony RAW then an F5/F55 with an R5 and its 16-bit RAW would be the value path to go IMHO. For ease of post-work on everyday type jobs, I find the 10-bit S-LOG3 with its much more even data distribution works well for my kind of output. Not doing Hollywood here

    Chris Young

    "For 14 stops: 12-bit linear raw is a compromise. The 10-bit log is a compromise. Once upon a time, we used to use the 10-bit recording for just 6 to 10 stops. But now we want to record 14 stops in a 10 bit. So along comes log which instead of recording each successively brighter stop with more data (to mimic real-world light) we record each stop with the same, very limited amount of data. The net result is that while in many cases it is perceptually lossless, the brighter stops are recorded with less and less data relative to the true light in the scene being shot and overall there is less data per stop than there would be if we were only capturing 6 to 10 stops. The compromises in log start just above middle grey and continue all the way to the very brightest stop. Then add to that compression artefacts as the 10-bit recordings are highly compressed in the case of XAVC or perhaps a little less highly compressed if you take the SDI or 10 bit HDMI (4K 30fps max) and record it externally with something like ProRes. Linear raw tries to record the scene with the correct amount of data for each stop. So that means each stop requires twice as much data as the previous one. The problem is that if we use just 2 code values for the first stop we need 2048 code values to record stop 11. 12-bit data only has a maximum of 4096 code values, so by stop 11 we have run out of data. 14 stop linear raw actually needs 16 bits. So Sony cheat, In all probability, they use something called floating-point math. In effect, this rounds the data by a factor of 4 or 8. In the highlights, the brightest stop instead of using 8192 code values only gets 2048 code values. That's actually no big deal, 2048 code values is a heck of a lot of data. But down in the shadows where a stop might only have 16 code values, divide that by 4 and it's only 4 and that is a huge compromise. Log likes to be exposed brightly, it helps reduce noise in the end result, and gives better colour. 12-bit linear raw, really, really needs to be well exposed as anything down in the lower end will lack code values so will appear coarse and grainy. But there is a huge amount of data up in the highlights of 12 bit raw. Bright scenes work really well with 12 bit linear, low key can be a disaster. But it's uncompressed so there are no compression artefacts to deal with, just massive file sizes to cope with. it's Bayer sensor data so there is more scope for white balance shifts in post-production. If you really want raw, look for a used F5/R5. 16 bit linear raw, compressed visually losslessly 3:1. Files that are no bigger than ProRes HQ, but with the correct amount of code values for 14 stops. If you are serious about HDR then think about an F55. The FS5/FS7/F5 sensors just don't have the colour range to really take full advantage of Rec-2100. Sure you can fill up Rec-2020 with a saturation boost but you won't have the depth of colour and range that an F55 can produce, and after all, HDR is all about showing a greater range, it's not just a case of turning up the volume."

    https://us.community.sony.com/s/ques...language=en_US


    https://www.xdcam-user.com/2017/08/t...-raw-to-s-log/

    Data level distributions.jpg

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  • firehawk
    replied
    Thanks guys. I missed this until now and was wanting an extra recorder for my FS700r cameras. Looks like the Ninja V+ is not my favorite choice due to massive RAW only recording.
    Will the Shogun 7 record all the same options as the Shogun Inferno with the FS700R?
    Anyone know if the Shogun Connect 7 supports the FS700R raw?

    Leave a comment:


  • kaidumo
    replied
    I think your best bet is to get a couple used Odyssey 7Qs and record continuous 120 or 240 fps at 1080 or 2K to Prores LT. Note that the FS700 can only output high frame rates and resolutions via SDI, not HDMI.

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  • drboffa
    replied
    To get 120p/240p continuous out of the FS700 you need the raw upgrade. You can then record 2K 120/240 continuous to an external recorder like the Odyssey 7Q, Shogun Inferno or Shogun 7, or Ninja V+ Pro kit with SDI. (But note that the Ninja V+ will only record in ProRes RAW; if you want to record in regular ProRes or CDNG you will need one of the other recorders.)

    This will also give you 4K burst mode in super slow motion (120p), but not continuous 4K. Continuous 4K only goes up to 60p.

    Internally, and without the raw upgrade, you are always limited to short bursts of super slow motion.

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  • F/4
    replied
    I recently bought two FS700 camcorders on auction. Both have been converted to 4K. I am trying to understand the best option, using an external recorder to record in 720P, 1080P or 2K in either 120FPS or 240FPS continuously. Of all that I have read on line about FS700 slow motion abilities. No one is talking about recording slow motion in 720P. I am primarily a still photographer, who did basic video work at times, using the Canon XLH1 HDV camcorder and Atomos Samurai and Ninja external recorders. The Ninja with an Atomos H2S HDMI to HD-SDI was for backup, and never got used. I outsourced the post production work. So, as you can tell, my knowledge of digital video is somewhat limited. I contacted Atomos to see if the Atomos H2S HDMI to HD-SDI converted would work on the Ninja V+ and FS700 Was told I would have to upgrade to using the Ninja V+ and newer HDMI to HD-SDI converter. I then got to wondering if the SF700R can shoot 720P at 60FPS, 120FPS, or 240FPSslow motion internally. Do you know if FS700 (converted to 4K) camcorder can output 720P slow motion continuously. At any of the FPS (frames per. second) to either an external recorder or to Flash card inside the FS700R. Barring that, what is the less costly of options to consider, when buying external recorder/monitor for recording in 2K slow-motion

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  • kaidumo
    replied
    As an update, I was able to test this out on my FS700. it's only the Ninja V+ (not the Ninja V) that is compatible with the FS700 and FS5, and it needs the AtomX SDI module and the raw license installed.

    It take the FSRAW signal through SDI and converts it to Prores RAW, however it does not offer conversation to regular Prores or CDNG like the Odyssey or Shogun.

    It was great having the lighter, smaller monitor, but usually I shoot Prores LT, and the Prores RAW file space was huge. Overkill for the majority of my work. The other hiccup is that no matter your picture profile in-camera, the Ninja will only recognize it as SLOG s-gamut3.cine. So depending on your editor, your colour workflow may be different. In the Premier raw tab, there is no decode/remap option for SLOG2.

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  • Doug Jensen
    replied
    Originally posted by Tim Sewell View Post

    You still need a suitable recorder to get the raw from both FS5 and FS7 (and the raw upgrade in the case of the FS5 Mk1). Especially for the FS5, the only previous recorders were the Shogun Inferno and the CD Odyssey (with licences) - both discontinued and less flexible than thr Ninja line.
    Actually, you are forgetting about Sony's R5 recorder, which is arguably the best, simplist, and most elegant solution for 16-bit RAW.
    And it just so happens I'm selling my FX7 + R5 combo right now! :-) https://www.dvxuser.com/forum/market...corder-package
    It is a great package for anyone who really wants to capture very high-end images at a price that is actually less than today's cost of a new FS7m2. You get the FS7 (same as an mark2 but without variable ND), XDCA, R5, 1TB of memory cards, and the IFR5 interface. Everything you need.

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  • Tim Sewell
    replied
    Originally posted by SJX View Post
    The FS700 has been one of best bang for buck 4K for a while. But now with prices of used FS7 and FS5 go for, is this really that relevant? Seems price of a FS700 plus this recorder buys a FS5 or even FS7. Or what I'm missing?
    You still need a suitable recorder to get the raw from both FS5 and FS7 (and the raw upgrade in the case of the FS5 Mk1). Especially for the FS5, the only previous recorders were the Shogun Inferno and the CD Odyssey (with licences) - both discontinued and less flexible than thr Ninja line.

    Leave a comment:


  • SJX
    replied
    The FS700 has been one of best bang for buck 4K for a while. But now with prices of used FS7 and FS5 go for, is this really that relevant? Seems price of a FS700 plus this recorder buys a FS5 or even FS7. Or what I'm missing?

    Leave a comment:


  • say_doyster
    replied
    Firmware 10.71 is for both the V and V+. Slightly different levels of capability depending on the camera/recorder combo.

    B

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  • drboffa
    replied
    Saw this earlier this morning—it's huge! Totally unexpected, as well.

    Maybe this is part of the effort by Atomos to move more Ninja V+ units. I picked one up when they offered a $500 discount to existing owners of the Shogun (and some other models), and now I'm glad I did. It's not my favorite piece of kit but this makes it much more useful if I want to keep my Fs5 going longer alongside the FX6.

    The only downside is it only records ProRes RAW, which means you need the extra step of transcoding if you want your footage in regular ProRes flavors (which I'd prefer).

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  • patrickbaldwin
    replied
    It's actually the Ninja V+ not the Ninja V.

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  • kaidumo
    started a topic They finally gave us FSRAW support on the 5" Ninja V!

    They finally gave us FSRAW support on the 5" Ninja V!

    Newsshooter article : https://www.newsshooter.com/2021/11/...YTrm7p3V_JXndA

    For me this will make the camera rig so much lighter and more portable. Very excited!
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