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    What camera solution + workflow for school recording?

    Hi there,
    Our school.often needs to record concerts and school chapels...but we need a simpler workflow (In the past I've done multi DSLR shoots..with editing in Plural Eyes + multi cam syncing...)

    But this is all too much mucking around for weekly recording when time is a real factor...


    Currently one of our staff just use a single DSLR...mic straight on camera....does the job...but want to ramp up the production quality...

    Gear we have available:

    New BlackMagic ATEM mini pro..(barely used so far!).....and a whole bunch of Canon DSLR's ...one older Canon XA30....a complete PA with various microphones going into the desk...but not to the camera...or the switcher...

    but have discovered these DSLR cameras are not great for:

    clean HDMI out into the Blackmagic switcher
    Recording audio direct from the mixer.

    Can someone help advise us on:

    1.) A workflow to record audio and video directly together that we get a nicely synced final video file...ready for editing in Premiere Pro without having to muck around with dual audio in Plural Eyes like I usually do for personal projects. I was thinking maybe getting one of those Rode Wireless gadgets to go from the Mixer in the hall...direct into the camera...but how do we record the audio and video together? Record from the Switcher? Record into a new camera? Record onto a laptop or a HD in the camera?

    2.) A possible new 'events' camera purchase that will work together with the switcher..(ie HDMI out)...and clean HDMI (no graphics on the screen!) 1080p would be totally fine...we don't need 4K..and an XLR proper audio recording option...ie. easy monitoring of sound..headphone jack etc.

    3.) Ability to 'stream' live while we are at it...

    * We have around $2500K AUD to spend...on top of the gear we already have..

    Thanks for any tips.on what you would do with this gear in this live setting...I've done a lot of film work...but not much of this 'live' type scenario...and do dual audio for my own projects...but we need to make this more user friendly for various staff using this gear...with short turn arounds..and as little editing as possible.
    Thanks,

    - Matt




    #2
    This is a loaded request...a lot of moving parts.

    And I started writing more stuff, but I think you need a consultation with someone who can see everything you have and help you set it up for the type of productions you work on.

    And I think you need YouTube because some of the information you're requesting requires some knowledge, education - and seeing people show their setups and talk about them will teach you much faster. Search various keywords: Setting up ATEM Mini Pro, Recording with ATEM Mini Pro, Audio ATEM Mini Pro, Streaming ATEM Mini Pro.

    Hundreds of videos.

    In short (very short):

    - ATEM Mini Pro has mic inputs and can also record, so you can run a cable from the audio mixer to it and a cable from the camera to it.
    - For $2500 you have a few choices for camcorders but none of them will ramp up your production quality too much using them in HD if you're talking about the overall picture IQ
    - Many modern day 4K mirrorless' will but they come with the usual shortcomings (pretty much all decently-priced ones have clean HDMI)
    - Many older DSLRs have clean HDMI...which ones aren't working for you?
    - What is your audio situation like now? What are you doing with the mixer?
    - You can stream straight from the ATEM Mini Pro

    Comment


      #3
      I think you’re wanting to simplify something that is, evolution wise, already simple. Plural eyes for example. It was designed for those who found sync a problem. It isnt. I’ve never ever needed it because you can become very good at it without plural eyes, looking at the timelines. The bloggers now can produce a couple of shows a day very simply with templates and good computer skills. It sounds like your problem is the lack of a workflow that smooths your edit. I don’t think extra hardware will work for you, just making your workload higher. If you want to live stream and switch cameras live, then you need to see the sources and somebody will have to listen to the audio. You could mix live with a real mixer or you can try to do it with computers. Black magic would let you have two computers for two people, but it’s getting more complex. I think the idea to get somebody in to sit with you and listen to your needs is the best one. You presumably are staff, so is the time a real problem or you and the team just not liking it much? DSLR s are rubbish at sound. Always will be as that’s not what they were designed for. A pa needs an operator but the audience need to hear different things from the audience at home. They might hear the piano in the background direct, but the home audience wont. So you put a mic on the piano for home listeners but you don’t want the piano live, so that’s two mixes. Live streaming with video and audio might also need all your cameras getting headsets so you can instruct and direct them. In an edit, the moment when none of your sources has good video means you use a cutaway of some kind. Live, you wont have it. Going live is probably four times as much work as an edit if you want quality.

      Comment


        #4
        DSLRs being rubbish with sound is an old wives' tale at this point.

        What's more accurate to say is they aren't a good fit in professional audio environments where XLR connections are robust and balanced. But DSLRs/mirrorless' are highly capable of great sound.

        An external preamp, a sensitive microphone, and great mic placement - and barely anyone on planet earth would notice the difference if no interference is had.

        Plus, in general, internal preamps keep improving and are night-and-day compared to what they were 10 years ago.

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks so much for the replies here really appreciate your thoughts and words of wisdom!

          I think it is a great point to just stop and think about our workflow...

          Really time is one of our critical constraints...ie. we need a workflow that gives us good strong quality with the minimum amount of fuss.

          (I have previously done the multi DSLR shoot for musicals myself...edited this later in Premiere...Plural Eyes for audio...great result...but this is time consuming...as I have to watch the entire thing back..mixing the camera feeds in post...(I'm also regularly teaching...and to find half a day to do this is not what they want me spending time on)

          ..so have to train another staff member for an easier workflow...

          Am watching a few videos on the Atem Mini Pro...

          At the moment I'm thinking this for the workflow:

          1.) Plug 2 cameras into the Atem Mini pro...so we have two angles...one with onboard shotgun mic for room noise. 3 person team required..(using students)...2 camera operators..1 video mixer. (Could even consider a third locked down camera that is a permanent wide shot of stage.)
          2.) Buy a Rode Wireless Go...connect this to output of mixer...send this direct into Atem Mini Pro
          3.) Buy a USB Hard Drive and record directly to Hard drive..so there is a recording.
          4.) Plug Atem mini Pro into School network with static IP
          5.) Stream to Youtube via Computer.

          (I don't think I can record to HD and stream at same time without using the network point..as the USB port is either one or the other? Or can you record direct onto the computer?)

          In theory we then have live streaming covered...and then a recorded version that can simply be ingested into Premiere for simple title and tidy before Export....

          I'm not sure whether Audio letency will be an issue with this.

          The other OPTION 2 alternative is to go the Plural eyes route...

          Setup dedicated audio recorder at the sound desk...have entire session recorded...

          Record video on the onboard camera...with the Atem Mini Pro too onto HD...then buy and train staff member in the use of Plural Eyes...

          which is a pretty easy workflow once working.


          On the question of clean HDMI..we have Canon 80D DLSR's..this is a weakness of them is they don't provide clean HDMI easily..you have to flick to manual focus..and turn off every setting under the sun...so that nothing displays on the output..it displays the whole screen.

          I wouldn't mind finding a 1080p camera that has XLR inputs..and easy monitoring system...like my gool old HVX202 has! (But there is no HDMI output on that I can see!)

          Maybe we should even just look online for a second hand professional camera of the 1080 p era...

          We just don't need 4K for what we need.

          Anyway I can see we just need to throw some serious time at getting our worflow right...

          Thanks,

          Matt
          Last edited by Mavoz; 11-06-2021, 06:15 PM.

          Comment


            #6
            I think you narrowed it down pretty well and I would experiment with both setups before any critical productions (if possible) and then you can also learn which one works best for you, and the people you train, and answer any questions you may have like about latency, or time-consuming practices in post, etc.

            As far as audio, you'll also have the audio from the HDMIs so consider that and any hardware working with the cameras. For any sync issues, you may be able to delay the audio in the BM (check settings).

            Is it possible to roll and record without stopping making the syncing of audio easier? (Then you'd have to likely clean up the file but maybe that wouldn't be too bad unless it's like 100 takes or something.)

            The Canon XA50 is a 4K camera but has pretty nice HD (for a camcorder) because it's from the last couple of years and it's around your budget:

            https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...al_uhd_4k.html

            The 80D indeed does not have true clean HDMI because the silly AF notifications mess it up, but the next one up in that family does, the 90D.

            Comment


              #7
              In doing more research I can see the ability to stream live AND record via the USB C is a challenge...the newer Atem Mini Pro Extreme solves this issue as it has two x USB C...but sadly we already have this current unit! Here is a solution.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QcPC1DyrDw&t=693s But this does seem more purchases and mucking around...maybe we just have to accept we are either streaming live OR we are recording...but not both!

              Edit: It just occured to me..maybe we are over complicating this...

              We could literally stream via OBS.to Youtube.....and just record at the same time...the quality won't be like what we'd do for a wedding or something...but may well be totally fine for the intended purpose? Maybe that would work...and would save post production editing...
              Last edited by Mavoz; 11-06-2021, 07:06 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                IMO, there's rarely anything in any school that is so so SO important that it can't wait a few hours to be watched...so if you don't need to stream, maybe it's even better and less work.

                Or if you don't buy a new camera, maybe you can buy this (and ensure no conflicts are had with streaming and recording at the same time even when jumping through loopholes).

                https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...r_monitor.html

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                  I think you narrowed it down pretty well and I would experiment with both setups before any critical productions (if possible) and then you can also learn which one works best for you, and the people you train, and answer any questions you may have like about latency, or time-consuming practices in post, etc.

                  As far as audio, you'll also have the audio from the HDMIs so consider that and any hardware working with the cameras. For any sync issues, you may be able to delay the audio in the BM (check settings).

                  Is it possible to roll and record without stopping making the syncing of audio easier? (Then you'd have to likely clean up the file but maybe that wouldn't be too bad unless it's like 100 takes or something.)

                  The Canon XA50 is a 4K camera but has pretty nice HD (for a camcorder) because it's from the last couple of years and it's around your budget:

                  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...al_uhd_4k.html

                  The 80D indeed does not have true clean HDMI because the silly AF notifications mess it up, but the next one up in that family does, the 90D.
                  Thanks for this...yeah we just happened to buy a whole bunch of 80Ds!! Anyway I think we could do with one dedicated Camera like the XA50...that we use for this kind of purpose. Thanks so much!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                    IMO, there's rarely anything in any school that is so so SO important that it can't wait a few hours to be watched...so if you don't need to stream, maybe it's even better and less work.

                    Or if you don't buy a new camera, maybe you can buy this (and ensure no conflicts are had with streaming and recording at the same time even when jumping through loopholes).

                    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...r_monitor.html
                    They are pretty keen on having 'live' streaming....this week we have parent information sessions...but I'm thinking if I can get OBS to record + stream...then I get what we need...live streaming...a decent qualitiy recording...and very little post production editing...would probably have to do one 're export' of the recording though...just to add a title and remove any fluff from the start and end...If we do a concert...then we can go with Plan B like you say..and not stream that live...but record direct to USB C hard drive..and do a more professional edit. Thanks for all the suggestions!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      That all sounds good and I'm sure you'll get everything up and running quickly. Just one last thing; maybe also consider that the BM has an HDMI output and that could be used to record to an Atomos or BM Video Assist (pending no surprises), even a cheap one for $250 from eBay.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                        That all sounds good and I'm sure you'll get everything up and running quickly. Just one last thing; maybe also consider that the BM has an HDMI output and that could be used to record to an Atomos or BM Video Assist (pending no surprises), even a cheap one for $250 from eBay.
                        Thanks.for this...the HDMI port to HDMI/USb capture cable was a possibility..but apparently (in the comments on that video above) the issue is you don't get 'Multicam' from the Atem Mini...I'm not exactly sure what they mean by this..only one source of video? Or perhaps you see all the control screens of the Atmos...so it isn't a 'clean HDMI' will have to experiment with that...

                        .because I thought that was another option...a cheap HDMI capture cable..and then web stream via that...HDMI out port...

                        Anyway long and short is..the Atem Mini Pro Extreme would have been the better option..but that was only released after we bought ours! Thanks

                        Comment


                          #13
                          It should, but I think you want the 'Program' output if you're recording. If I'm not mistaken, 'Multi View' would show all your feeds which is great for monitoring, but you obviously don't want to record that. If it's clean (which it should be), hopefully the cuts are seamless as well because even a very minor delay of a few black frames just wouldn't be acceptable.

                          ATEM Mini Pro.jpg

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I film high school productions. What works best for me is 2 matched camcorders. To eliminate time consuming multi cam edit you could record the live mix with the Atem. The atem mini doesn't offer multi view, meaning you wouldn't be able to view multiple camera feeds to make editing decisions, the mini pro does. DSLR and mirrorless cameras aren't the right tool to film stage events.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                              DSLRs being rubbish with sound is an old wives' tale at this point.

                              What's more accurate to say is they aren't a good fit in professional audio environments where XLR connections are robust and balanced. But DSLRs/mirrorless' are highly capable of great sound.

                              An external preamp, a sensitive microphone, and great mic placement - and barely anyone on planet earth would notice the difference if no interference is had.

                              Plus, in general, internal preamps keep improving and are night-and-day compared to what they were 10 years ago.
                              Sorry - I should have said that DSLRs are rubbish at sound apart from the limited interconnects, lack of balanced and separate audio inputs, simple control of audio levels while recording.

                              Perfectly fine for capturing sync audio - but the audio is so good most people just record it to other equipment. Noise levels are better now - but they are just the wrong form factor to do audio very well at all.

                              Comment

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