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What camera solution + workflow for school recording?

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    #31
    I'm not sure the format is a real issue? I record on JVC cameras, or via a Blackmagic studio switcher but the actual format I record in is rarely an issue. We can edit (using Premiere) anything really - H264 is probably the format of choice (or at least what is usually set), but sometimes due to user error - we end up editing mixed formats and for us, it's not a problem. If we were doing things in schools and colleges, then all we need is a handclap sync point at the top or end of the shoot and that's sync sorted and while we do use Zooms a lot for audio, we often use the inputs on one of the cameras for program audio as they sound channels provide phantom and have plenty of dynamic range and while not as good a noise performance as the zooms, they're perfectly good enough. Sometimes we get footage from small POV cameras and even the occasional DSLR, and as long as they're running the same frame rate sync isn't an issue with a clap beginning or end. With decent lighting, we can use all kinds of cameras as part of the feed.

    What exactly is in your workflow that is a bottleneck that you want to remove?

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      #32
      Formats could be an issue when you're working with a wide variety of them.

      For instance, it wouldn't be wise to mix, say, Blackmagic RAW, ProRes RAW, REDCODE RAW and various flavors of H.265 unless you understand that you'll have to be savvy with various software and have the horse power to handle it all (and the knowledge).

      E.G. A Windows computer with Premiere may do great with the Blackmagic RAW and REDCODE RAW but won't be able to work with the full potential of ProRes RAW and may break when trying to handle Canon's H.265.

      Or a perky Apple M1 enthusiast with FCP-only will rip though 3/4 above, but BRAW will practically be useless for him or her.

      Then there's the whole pesky color science thing.

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        #33
        Get a few old Sony F3's or F5's and timecode sync everything. They have all the pro I/o's for Multicam, and used they don't cost anymore than mirrorless or Blackmagic. But offer up a lot of Multicam features and easy codecs. I suppose the SXS would be the only slight draw back? But internal ND, flexible lens mounts, light weight plastic bodies. Robust BNC and XLR. By the time you rig out a new cheap camera, you are spending more money.

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          #34
          but he's not using these formats is he? Based on what he posted? I'll go back and read again. I'm still very confused over this sync concern? Timecode is fine, but of course free running timcode without syncing up all the cameras to the master source (can we say that any more?) Sync ceased being a concern once we moved to solid state.

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            #35
            For him, probably not (even though he was considering a Blackmagic studio camera with external Blackmagic RAW recording), but was just saying in general.

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              #36
              OP should clarify what he is trying to do. He might be imagining a problem where there is none. Syncing a few cameras now a days isn't that hard.

              I film budget performances is with two match camcorders (one fixed wide of the stage, the other for the close ups). As long the cameras are recording the ambient audio to one of their channels, they can be easily synced . If you can record a video mix there will be no editing or syncing.
              Last edited by Peter C.; 11-09-2021, 01:40 PM.

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                #37
                Originally posted by Peter C. View Post
                OP should clarify what he is trying to do.....
                A very true word Peter! Part of this thread for me has actually been unpacking this with you all...so thank you..have really appreciated all the feedback and ideas as it has indeed helped me clarify what we are trying to do!

                Have now got some answers...and just tonight ran an information session with the Atem mini Pro live streaming..and it worked really well...

                So here is the summary of our key problems to solve...current answers and questions.

                Problem:

                1) We need a workflow that will provide a way to live stream events like weekly class Chapels, meetings and occasional musicals.

                2) We need to also simultaneously record this event so it is available for parents to watch later.

                3) We need audio to be of a better quality than just a shotgun mic onboard the camera...preferably making use of Hall PA system when available or external SM58 on a stand etc.

                4) We need to do this all in as simple a workflow as possible...so that a staff member or students who have never heard of Red cameras..Blackmagic Raw..Codecs...Dual audio workflows..timecode syncing etc...(as I have)...can do it...they may need a bit of training..but they don't need to be industry vets...


                Tools at our disposal:
                • Atem Mini Pro + Cat 6 HDMI extenders
                • Canon XA10
                • Hall PA with mixer, stereo output and all manner of microphones from Choir mics, to SM58, 57's etc.

                Proposed solution:

                1) We purchase one new A Camera..this camera will have 2 x XLR inputs...good low light...and physical controls that allows live mixing of audio via headphone jack and easy to read level meters.

                2.) We plug in one onboard shotgun microphone...OR a direct SM 58 on a lead if a smaller meeting into A Camera

                3) Into the second XLR we buy and utilise a Rode Wireless 2 GO...in a hall context this takes the output from the mixer and directly feeds into the camera for live mixing on the camera using headphones and levels.

                4) The A Camera feeds audio and video directly into HDMI input 1 on Atem Mini Pro...it is master video/audio.

                5) The XA10 becomes a B camera view..pluggd into Atem mini via Cat 6 extender/HDMI (Student trained to use)

                6) We purchase a C camera that provides clean HDMI out...pluggd into Atem mini....something under $1000 that does the job! (again connected via Cat 6 or HDMI - student trained operator)

                7) The Atem Mini Pro is hooked up directly to a laptop..and connected via OBS for both audio and video stream...

                8) We stream live directly to Youtube with an unlisted link shared with our parent community via Intranet/internal comms.

                9) The live Youtube stream is later given a basic edit start/and end...we have our recording...job done!

                10 ) We also press record on A camera for redundancy + B and C

                11) We can record with OBS too..for a multi cam recrding backup,

                12) In the event of a very special event...eg a Musical...we record on A, B, and C cameras...(or above workflow collapsing)...we also record at sound desk via mixer...We can then.do the traditional multi cam mix with Premiere Pro and Plural Eyes if all else fails or we need higher quality than the 1080p live feed.

                How does that sound?

                Final questions for anyone still with me!

                1) What is a good A camera that provides 2 x XLR inputs easy physical controls to monitor + acceptable pre amps etc? Maybe we need to spend more than $2500?

                Current top contenders mentioned include the Canon XA50......good low light..1080p...easy to use..BUT I don't like the location of the mic level dials compared with my old faithful HVX202!

                Maybe the Blackmagic Studio cam...or an old Sony F3 or F5...etc.

                2) What is a good cheap clean HDMI Out C Camera that just provides a good image...and can at least record?

                Thanks for all your support and/or any comments on the plan here! Appreciate your patience as I get my head around this!
                Last edited by Mavoz; 11-10-2021, 02:53 AM.

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                  #38
                  Can you just try, test something and see if it works?

                  Like, we can say, "Yeah, that will work." - but I don't know how much that will help you.

                  In video production, it is pretty much a fact that you will encounter issues even with a very solid blueprint. Like you may realize the IQ between cameras is too great and you don't approve, or there are delays in the pipeline, or the audio setup needs to be tweaked, or the people being trained keep messing up PluralEyes...

                  All of these cameras do different things...did you watch any YouTube on them to see if you like what you see?

                  In my experience, some of the richest private schools here in the northeast have streamed their simple auditorium productions with one iPad and the parents were thrilled.

                  With everything considered, don't you also think they'll likely love anything you do just so they can see their kids?

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                    Can you just try, test something and see if it works?


                    All of these cameras do different things...did you watch any YouTube on them to see if you like what you see?
                    Thanks...really the whole thing is fairly simple now..just going to research an A Camera and a C Camera...

                    We know what we're after...key feature..easy to control audio levels...XLR inputs..clean HDMI

                    The quality from our exising camera did the job on yesterdays stream..(A Canon XA 30 I realised not an XA10 when I double checked the number!)

                    But need another events cam...so that is what we'll focus on....+ a simple clean HDMI equiped C cam..maybe a Canon if one of them can do it.

                    Researching away now! Thanks



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                      #40
                      Hi All. Have narrowed current resarch down to tgetting hese two additional cameras:

                      Baclmagic Design Studio Camera Pro

                      https://www.videocraft.com.au/blackm...-camera-4k-pro

                      Black magic Micro 4K Studio Camera

                      https://www.diamondscamera.com.au/bl...RoCj7MQAvD_BwE

                      BUT...the issue is the lens....it looks like we have to use an adaptor for our exisitng EOS lenses...which limits it to manual...unless we buy an expensive adaptor...

                      In that case we'd be probably better getting a dedicated 4/3's lens for it...=

                      Anyone used these Blackmagic cams?? How have you found them? They seem to provide good moniroting solutions and lots of manual controls...

                      Thanks!
                      (edit....that Micro cam looks like it doesn't have view finder...so might be better with one of their other cheaper ones)

                      Last edited by Mavoz; 11-17-2021, 05:40 PM.

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                        #41
                        These cameras don't have continuous AF so any expensive adapter for that purpose would be a waste of money. The very few that exist with electronic control should allow for the aperture to be changed with the buttons on the camera (but you'd of course confirm that yourself before any major filming).

                        I owned the old ones - both models, HD and 4K - at a time when the camera landscape was drastically different and the 4K version had some of the best IQ available (and also 4K/60p) in the world for the money - but the overall size and recording to an external recorder only made them useful for non-run-and-gun productions.

                        Blackmagic screens are some of the best in the business for monitoring (especially their peaking and general GUI).

                        The Micro 4K is an old model, while the Plus and Pro are the new ones. The Micro doesn't have a LOG/"Film" dynamic range option (if it matters).

                        These are all external recording cameras. You will have no back-up, internally.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                          These cameras don't have continuous AF so any expensive adapter for that purpose would be a waste of money. The very few that exist with electronic control should allow for the aperture to be changed with the buttons on the camera (but you'd of course confirm that yourself before any major filming).

                          I owned the old ones - both models, HD and 4K - at a time when the camera landscape was drastically different and the 4K version had some of the best IQ available (and also 4K/60p) in the world for the money - but the overall size and recording to an external recorder only made them useful for non-run-and-gun productions.

                          Blackmagic screens are some of the best in the business for monitoring (especially their peaking and general GUI).

                          The Micro 4K is an old model, while the Plus and Pro are the new ones. The Micro doesn't have a LOG/"Film" dynamic range option (if it matters).

                          These are all external recording cameras. You will have no back-up, internally.
                          Thanks for this..maybe the Blackmagic Cinema Pro Camera is the one to look at?

                          It looks like it has internal recording on SD card? Does touch to focus work with EF lenses? I thought I read somewhere this was a way to focus it?

                          Apparently the Pro has built in ND filters..+ with an adaptor can use XLR cables?

                          I guess the alternative is to stick with the Canon XA 50...but they are nearly the same cost...

                          Thanks!

                          https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...specs/W-CIN-16

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                            #43
                            Which camera are you talking about...you're making up your own model, lol.

                            Any camera with the word "studio" in its name doesn't record internally or have ND filters.

                            The rest do but only the URSA Mini G1, G2, 12K, Pocket 6K Pro, and both URSA Broadcast models, G1 and G2 (brand new) have ND filters.

                            Focusing does not work the same as in Japanese cameras; the cameras take 4-5 seconds to find focus, pulsing in and out until they do.

                            (And not every camera above uses SD cards or uses SD cards for the best formats.)

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                              #44
                              Sorry, missed that link...yeah, the 6K Pro has ND filters and mini-XLRs. (You can use an adapter if you really need to.)

                              You can use SD cards for your purpose (1080p).

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                                #45
                                I can tell the OP has his heart set on Blackmagic but they aren't well suited for staged events. Blackmagic excel at entry level cinema or studio work. They'd be fine for cinema class or school studio news station.

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