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P2 reliable as tape, better, or not: USERS PLEASE RESPOND

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    P2 reliable as tape, better, or not: USERS PLEASE RESPOND

    See: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...&postcount=769

    From: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...92#post1255792

    I understand completely what you are saying Barry and I'm not arguing your point I'm simply saying that IF the P2 card isn't RAID 1 mirror like the Panasonic rep said then even if it is made of the finest materials on the planet without a 100% back up (which I was told it was - mirror) then the card isn't as reliable as tape and that would be correct and un-arguable.
    I'm sorry to drag you all into another thread across the board, but everything I know about P2 is, that while nothing is 100% perfect (anything can fail), P2 is far more reliable than tape.

    What I'm asking for is for P2 users to answer these simple things:

    How long have you been using P2?

    Have you ever had a hardware failure with P2? If yes, how many?


    How long have you worked with tape?

    Have you ever had a failure with tape? If yes, how many?



    Sincerely,

    Bob Diaz


    #2
    I've been using P2 workflow since July 2007.

    Have never had a hardware failure. Always had my footage intact on the P2 card. Transfered with a breeze either through PCMCIA slot or USB 2.0 port.

    Worked with tape...for a very long time. haha
    Tape failure? of course. Dropped frames due to re using the tapes or dirty heads after a lot of use.

    None of that nonsense with P2. If you go about the normal way of doing business (which everyone does), you shouldn't have a problem with guessing whether you have the footage or not. The only way you could possibly lose something is within the transfer process. Like your laptop goes into power saving mode timer (who has this on anyway?) or it freezes while transferring due to background software running that gobbles up the CPU.
    Last edited by blckhawk542; 04-19-2008, 06:19 PM.


    chillin in Las Vegas




    Make the switch and make a difference.

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      #3
      I have had problems with the Firestore, but not with P2. I bought my HVX right after NAB 2006, and love it so much I've bought an HPX500. I have had an occasional clip that's needed repair, but after using the repair function in the camera, the clip plays fine. When I say a few, I mean I could count bad clips on 1 hand and have fingers left over. I'm a freelancer, and P2 has never slowed me down. When clients want to take the footage with them, I give them a hard drive at the end of the day. I've worked with tape for over 15 years, I've had tape get eaten by machines, cameras and drop out. I love the P2 workflow.

      Comment


        #4
        I've shot probably over 1,000 P2 cards in the last two years. Never lost a single frame, never gotten a lost clip, never any error whatsoever. No dropouts, no glitches, no issues. Absolutely reliable.

        I don't know if Jay Nemeth will weigh in on this, but he told me at NAB that his experience parallels mine, he's shot and transferred over 700 cards and never lost a frame. I helped establish his workflow back in November 2005 on a prototype HVX, he's used the exact same workflow ever since (transfer to two hard drives, store one while editing off the other). Flawless.
        ..
        The AU-EVA1 Book - The DVX200 Book - The UX180 & UX90 Book - Lighting For Film & TV - Sound For Film & TV

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          #5
          Our first HVX is camera SN 261, purchased two years ago. I've transferred literally hundreds of 4GB and 8GB cards - now updating to 16GB and 32GB for most situations.

          I have never lost a shot. The only hiccup we ever had was a P2Store glitch. We worked around it by dumping through P2Genie to a laptop. It was one of those situations where we simply could not stop long enough to consider what was going on. We were on location in a National Park and losing light. The cards copied, but would not display in P2Viewer on the same laptop.

          During lunch, we discovered we'd left the P2Store in Mac mode from a previous shoot, and, after resetting it to PC, were able to view all the downloaded files.

          P2, from a reliability standpoint, has been equal to, or better than, my experiences in any of the tape formats I've used over these past twenty years (U-Matic, BetaSP, DVCam, MiniDV, DigiBeta and HDCam).

          Originally posted by Barry_Green View Post
          I helped establish his workflow back in November 2005 on a prototype HVX, he's used the exact same workflow ever since (transfer to two hard drives, store one while editing off the other). Flawless.
          By the way, this is the workflow we have used on every shoot since starting. It is flawless. Through P2Genie, you can even offload the P2Store to dual drives simultaneously. If we're shooting for ourselves, one HDD goes into storage, one into the NLE. If for a client, one set goes back as a carry-on with them and one set stays with us for "vaulting" or is shipped separately as a failsafe.


          Our method for P2 workflow. This is an early document we used to send
          out as a part of a collateral package to producers not familiar with P2.

          We have not had a single reported loss of data in over two years.

          e
          Last edited by Erik Olson; 04-19-2008, 08:58 PM.
          Erik Olson

          Comment


            #6
            After just under 1000 transfers over three cards . . .

            0 P2 Cards losses
            1 Transfer HDD failure (WD 500 GB SATA internal) before back up had been initiated

            Comment


              #7
              I couldn't tell you how often I've dumped P2 cards, but it must be hundreds of times, about half of them on a PCMCIA/PCCard-slot equipped laptop, and the rest using a USB connection to a Windows XP box.

              I used to use two 8GB P2 cards, but now that I have two 32GB cards the 8GB cards are my backup / spillover cards, and subsequently I don't offload to my laptop as much as I used to. Whenever possible I travel light and leave the laptop at home and then offload using USB.

              I've never lost a single frame this way, and that makes it more reliable for me than tape has been.

              I've never had a tape come apart on me, but I have had my share of dropouts and jumps that were the result of not retensioning tapes prior to use -- that's a pain when ingesting, but it kills you when recording.

              Comment


                #8
                I'm paranoid, and primarily shoot live events, so my switch to P2 for many projects says a lot.

                The second I'm done shooting, I flip the write protect switch on the cards. It doesn't get turned off until moments before I reformat the cards in the camera. I don't erase the cards until I have at least two copies of the footage on different HDs, and usually a copy of all footage in high-quality H.264 on DVD media as an emergency backup and long-term archive of "raw" footage.

                I haven't had any problems with P2 cards in the last 5 months since i switched to a primarily P2 workflow - say, about 100 card-cycles. I ONCE had a problem, over a year ago when I had only 1 4GB card, doing a long (2-hr) shot with the unsupported 2FPS hack. 1 frame was mosaiced.

                That said, with HVX or DVX, I don't think I had more than 1 or two minor droputs using tape since 2003... around 5-600 tapes.

                Frankly, I find shooting tape more convenient, and it seems safer - not in the sense that the P2 hardware will fail, but in terms of potential for human error and general computer (especially HD) problems. I certainly don't save time or effort with the P2 workflow - I have to spend a lot of time and mental effort making sure it's all backed up solidly. This is perhaps particular to me; my shooting ratio is very close to 1:1, so any loss is catastrophic. I've spoken to, and worked with many people who don't share my paranoid approach and ultra-careful and redundant processes - and almost everyone I've spoken to has lost significant P2 footage. But - dare I say it here - the film production world is relatively tolerant - almost expectant - of a certain amount of lost or spoiled footage or audio, whereas in my line, any loss of footage or sound would mean a loss of a significant chunk of my client base.

                (One might ask why I use P2, then? 3 reasons:
                1) Even is SD, I can record 4 tracks of audio on the HVX... which gives me my normal 2 tracks from my audio system, and a completely separate emergency audio backup recording. Never had to use it, don't expect to... but when recording unique events, it's a comfort

                2) With the advent of the 16GB cards, P2 finally gives me a distinct advantage in uninterrrupted recording time over tape.

                3) Discipline! With P2, I'm forced to finish projects quickly (that is, I can't just drop the tapes in a drawer and load 'em up when I feel its convenient). I don't like erasing my original footage from the P2s until I've got the final, compressed MPEGs backed up on a DVD. Having only 2 16GB cards, tyhat means every project has to be pretty much finished before the next one begins... often, that means within a day or two. So my turnaround time has really dropped!

                4) HD, about 10% of the time.)

                So, which is more reliable, overall? Hard to say so early in the game. P2 takes more work, but has some benefits. For us paranoid folks I think P2 is fine; but I think we're rare and many people seem to be losing footage occasionally at various points in the production process. I wouldn't recommend it to a lot of people I know who just don't have the mindset to do all the data wrangling well, but would recommend it highly to people who do. Sort of a non-answer? Hmmm... "know thyself"?

                Or, to rephrase: this is a complex question, and most of the answers you're getting seem to be from a "shooter's perspective". Which is reasonable, as there are lots of folks here who are primarily shooters. But I'd refine the question to include entire workflow, post, archiving, and long-term issues as well.
                Last edited by ullanta; 04-19-2008, 11:37 PM.
                "I'd like to say that I've never come across two know nothing pretenders on the weird wide web before, but unfortunately it's all too common and is exactly why, according to the last government survey, only 5% of all internet users ever use forums or chats. And it's exactly why I'm done with this one. You two really need to get jobs and out of your mother's basements. You can't fix stupid. And I don't have time for stupid." -swoopie

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by BobDiaz View Post
                  See: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...&postcount=769

                  From: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...92#post1255792



                  I'm sorry to drag you all into another thread across the board, but everything I know about P2 is, that while nothing is 100% perfect (anything can fail), P2 is far more reliable than tape.

                  What I'm asking for is for P2 users to answer these simple things:

                  How long have you been using P2?

                  Have you ever had a hardware failure with P2? If yes, how many?


                  How long have you worked with tape?

                  Have you ever had a failure with tape? If yes, how many?



                  Sincerely,

                  Bob Diaz
                  1. P2 since late summer of '06.

                  2. I had the Mac glitch early on. It only happened once, one take took two hits within 15 seconds of each other.

                  3. I've worked with tape since 1983.

                  4. I can only guess at the number of failures I've had with tape over the years. If this is to include significant drop outs as well as all out tape catastrophes, then I'd have to say 15-20 times.

                  In my experience thus far, I'd also have to say P2 is much more reliable than tape. However, it is also a much more complex workflow. While the P2 technology is more robust than tape, human error provides the greatest vulnerability in the system. Whereas, tape is the opposite- tape has greater potential for failure, but the human component is minimized.

                  I'm not a procedure oriented person (left brain ? ), P2 has been a further incentive for behavior modification for me ;-). In that regard I miss tape, it is so much easier. Fire and forget. The client can take the footage and run at the end of the shoot, versus the P2 process. I would never go back to tape though, the HVX has been a tremendously profitable addition to my gear package. I'm shooting DVCPro 50 and several flavors of HD without dropping the cash for a large camera and VTR. I just rent when a big camera is required and appropriate.

                  Broadcast ENG work with the producer or show du jour is a challenge for the P2 workflow. Thankfully, I'm weaning my business from these types of jobs and clients, so it's not been much of a problem. Still, one needs to develop their P2 originated footage delivery process. This aspect of P2 is slower and more laborious, no way around this. In my case I dump to OWC portable drives ( I have four in circulation) and deliver to the client. I even have a small Pelican case for drives that need to be Fedexed. Due to the amount of time required to copy and transfer footage, I've become more stringent on hardware choices- my portable drives will only be FW 800 drives with 16MB cache before too long.

                  I love my HVX and like P2, P2 works very, very well. My only reservations about it are that it is inherently much more computer/data based- of course, that's a given in our day and age .

                  Comment


                    #10
                    27 months with no errors.

                    4GB/8GB/16GB cards.
                    David S.



                    Accept No Imitations.
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                    Comment


                      #11
                      2+ years P2.
                      2 hvx-200s
                      8,16, 32gb cards.

                      No errors.
                      Matt Gottshalk
                      Director of Production
                      BPI.tv

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hi,

                        No problems with P2, drop outs with tape > I think that is everyone's experience...
                        Mike Gunter
                        VideoTidbits
                        Glacier Lily Productions

                        Comment


                          #13
                          16GB, 32GB: superior to tape, because more robust and much faster.
                          The only disadvantage: canīt charge customers who pay by the hour for digitizing. How much do you charge for transferring to HDD?

                          Technically P2 is perfect.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            We charge per GB of transfer time, plus the cost of HDDs (e.g., 160GB x 2 drives x $.XX / GB + HDD cost).

                            e
                            Erik Olson

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thanks Eric.
                              I just hope people donīt charge too little for GB transfer, since digitizing is usually paid as normal editing. HDDs have to be bought, you have to check the transfer and usually canīt use the system for anything else during transfer.
                              Donīt let the customer get used to too low transfer prices.

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