DVX 100 B "Pict enhancements + lower cost" ?
- Thread starter Kelly Olsen
- Start date
- Status
Kelly Olsen
New member
Barry_Green said:
Just as a reminder to those who may have not seen the first post in this thread, this is one of the two questions that several of us have been looking for an answer to.
The questions were was posted because of the following statements from the European Panasonic press release about the DVX 100B:
"Improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments have enhanced this already high quality unit allowing productions to cut material shot on this Camcorder into other formats with even more ease."
The other question was a carification about the statement from the release regarding cost which was:
"...prices for all Panasonics SD mini DVs has been brought down making production on these high quality units much more cost effective..."
Wasn't there talk in one of the other threads about some improvements having to do with pixel shift technology on the 100B?
Barry, if you can confirm that there are no picture quality (that includes colour and everything related) enhancements, then I do not care so much about the multiple camera sync, the viewfinder 16:9 or the black colour or the position of the speaker, and will just want to get the A with the goodies.
Barry, if you can confirm that there are no picture quality (that includes colour and everything related) enhancements, then I do not care so much about the multiple camera sync, the viewfinder 16:9 or the black colour or the position of the speaker, and will just want to get the A with the goodies.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't know that I can confirm anything other than what the press release from IBC said yet. Once the article gets posted, you'll know everything I know... 
Jeremy Ordan
Moderator
I just spent a pretty lengthy amount of time reading through this entire thread and there are some borderline angry posts from people who feel like something is being pulled on them because Panasonic has decided to improve on an existing product. It seems like some people who bought a DVX100A believe that with the B coming out their unit isn't as good or isn't the best and biggest anymore. Have these people ever bought a car? You are going to spend at least 10x more on a car, and almost every year something changes. Do you call up Honda and complain that you don't have the pretty new dash? Plus Honda is not about to go ahead and reduce the price of their new car. In fact, it will go up each and every single year. If you buy the car at the close out of the year you get rebates and discounts. It's called clearing out stock. You don't get angry about the next model of the car being more expensive. Plus, this whole list price versus street price... Am I the only one who notices that everything has a different list price than street price? This is the most ludicrious concept. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. Complaining about it doesn't make a difference. I hate the fact that I need to pay $30 for a carton of cigarettes but if I want the cigarettes I'm going to pay for it because that is what it costs. If you want the DVX and it costs $3400 then you are going to pay for it. I don't understand this massive outpouring over a new model coming out. People should be grateful that a multinational business conglomerate the size of Panasonic even bothers to take into account community feedback and enhance a $4000 camera. If you look at their direct market competition, no one else is doing that. A new version does not make your current camera obsolete anymore than driving a car that is a previous body style or year. Maybe it is just me, but I don't see what everyone is getting so animated and worked up over. Maybe I'm reading these posts wrong and tone isn't coming through, and if that is the case then I am out of line with my comments, but it seems to me like people need to just stop nit picking and beating a dead horse. I think it is great that this camera continues to be improved.
xl70e3
Skywalker
If you meant me, Yankee, then I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I'm actually not angry at all, even though I paid $3600 for my DVX without any fancy rebate stuff, MB, book, tapes etc. (yup, that's what it costs here ). I love my cam and I wanted it as soon as possible and I wouldn't wait several months for an upgrade. Besides, I'm planning on getting HVX, so I could really care less about anything else, when it finally comes out. So I probably simply freaked out, when I read about new camera this morning; it doesn't really concern me. It's just that I feel that this whole B stuff should have been advertised better, as in made known to customers sooner. Just look how many people here, on these boards, only recently got their DVXs. I bet there are 5-10 who got it this month - now imagine how they should feel about the fact that they might have made a wrong choice. Not that they chose a bad camera, hell we all know they didn't, but what if they waited a couple of weeks... would they get an even better one?
). I love my cam and I wanted it as soon as possible and I wouldn't wait several months for an upgrade. Besides, I'm planning on getting HVX, so I could really care less about anything else, when it finally comes out. So I probably simply freaked out, when I read about new camera this morning; it doesn't really concern me. It's just that I feel that this whole B stuff should have been advertised better, as in made known to customers sooner. Just look how many people here, on these boards, only recently got their DVXs. I bet there are 5-10 who got it this month - now imagine how they should feel about the fact that they might have made a wrong choice. Not that they chose a bad camera, hell we all know they didn't, but what if they waited a couple of weeks... would they get an even better one?Yankee, all the noise is because we are anxious. We're spending $3000+ on a camera and want to know if waiting a month will be worth it for a better model. And the infomation coming out is so scarce and word of mouth type, that it's just driving the whole saga around in circles. I want it to end to, I just want the camera so I can shoot.
And your point about pricing makes sense. But no one is doubting Panasonic, even their pricing, otherwise we wouldn't be checking this thread so frequently. And the fact that Joe or Kelly or whoever thinks that the price should be cheaper.... well, its their opinion/problem, doesn't effect Panasonic one bit. If we had some facts, there would be less speculation, and people would be bothered less by armchair quarterback type experts voicing their opinions.
Now, will someone just put up the article please. Why is it taking so long. Do you guys thing that they are delaying the article on purpose so that we will........
... just kidding.
And your point about pricing makes sense. But no one is doubting Panasonic, even their pricing, otherwise we wouldn't be checking this thread so frequently. And the fact that Joe or Kelly or whoever thinks that the price should be cheaper.... well, its their opinion/problem, doesn't effect Panasonic one bit. If we had some facts, there would be less speculation, and people would be bothered less by armchair quarterback type experts voicing their opinions.
Now, will someone just put up the article please. Why is it taking so long. Do you guys thing that they are delaying the article on purpose so that we will........
... just kidding.
Kelly Olsen
New member
TheYankee said:
Yankee,
Since you have not identified who specificaly you think is unreasonable here in the thread I will take responsibilty since I started the thread.
I do think you have missed the tone and in fact missed the points, at least mine.
This thread was started in response to an OFFICIAL Panasonic press release that gave two facts. 1. That the DVX 100B had "Improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments." 2. That "prices for all Panasonics SD mini DVs has been brought down".
People have made thousands of post with all kinds of questions, wild speculation and comments about the HVX 200.
Why then is asking for clarification of two very specific points about the 100B that are based on official information from Panasonic cosidered, as you put it, "nit picking?"
When a manufacturer boldly states that it has increased the picture quality of a camera (the most important feature of a camera) to make it an even greater camera and at the same time lowered the price, isn't it appropriate for a consumer to ask for details so they can make an informed decision about their purchase?
I agree with you and I think I have made it clear before that as you put it, "it is great that this camera continues to be improved." I, and others, gave a personal opinion about the list price of the 100B and considered it a bit high.
I made it clear that it was just my reaction as a consumer and made without the advantage of all the specific details or improvements of the 100B other than the fact that the camera did not have a native 16X9 chip. But since this thread was about the "improvements" and "recuded cost" I focused (no pun intended) on what the camera was and not on what it wasn't.
I, and it appears several others, would like to learn more about these "improvements" and if in fact "prices for all mini DV cameras" have been brought down so we can make an informed decision and spend our money effectively. That is the reason this thread was started. I am very sorry if offended you. It was unintentional.
Kelly (I'm going to get one of them once I know the facts) Olsen
Barry_Green
Moderator
It will happen when it happens, that's all I know...
Regarding "prices coming down" -- that is a European press release. It can only affect what that particular territory does. Panasonic Europe does not set prices for the US, and (as has been complained about loudly here) Panasonic US does not set prices or bundles for the rest of the world. Each territory sets their prices individually, and each sets their marketing packages individually.
In short, unless you live in Holland or the UK, you can officially let go of the "lower prices" comment, because that only affects that particular division of Panasonic. Panasonic UK cannot speak for the whole world, and their press releases cannot speak for the whole world. If Panasonic UK is lowering their price, it is only about 10 months late to that game, as Panasonic US lowered the price (effectively) by including a $300 rebate. I believe Jan has already said that in the US the retail price is unchanged, at $3995.
Regarding "prices coming down" -- that is a European press release. It can only affect what that particular territory does. Panasonic Europe does not set prices for the US, and (as has been complained about loudly here) Panasonic US does not set prices or bundles for the rest of the world. Each territory sets their prices individually, and each sets their marketing packages individually.
In short, unless you live in Holland or the UK, you can officially let go of the "lower prices" comment, because that only affects that particular division of Panasonic. Panasonic UK cannot speak for the whole world, and their press releases cannot speak for the whole world. If Panasonic UK is lowering their price, it is only about 10 months late to that game, as Panasonic US lowered the price (effectively) by including a $300 rebate. I believe Jan has already said that in the US the retail price is unchanged, at $3995.
Kelly Olsen
New member
Barry_Green said:
Thanks for the comments Barry. I actually think I understand the disconnect on my part . I was assuming (maybe incorrectly) that the FVX 100 was made in the SAME factory with different versions for PAL and NSTC.
I did realize that there were different marketing arms for different countries and that they had different retail pricing and promotions but not different plants.
Why I kept "beating a dead horse" was because the Panasonic Press release stated "prices for ALL Panasonics SD mini DVs has been brought down making production on these high quality units much more cost effective".
I was focusing on the word "production" which means to me the actual manufacturing cost. I thought that the combinations of the words "prices for ALL Panasonics SD mini DVs has been brought down" in combination with "making production on these high quality units much more cost effective" meant that the retail prices would be lower world wide because the actual cost have been lowered world wide.
But maybe the cameras in the European market are made differently and the cost are different which would explain the press release. Further, since nobody here associated with Panasonic has comments about the 100B having "Improved colour reproduction with advanced image adjustments" this could also indicate that maybe the two cameras are different. It could be that NTSC version does not incorporate these "new improvements" or simply that Panasonic reps are not ready to talk about them.
The reality I think for those of us that are trying to gather information so we can decide on which camera to purchase is that we will know about the camera when it is in the store.
I had no idea that these two question about price and picture improvements which were sparked by an official Panasonic press release would stir up so much ire and consternation. I think we've gotten all the answers that we are going to get and have angered enough people that this thread should probably be closed.
Coco Bermudez
New member
-"ire and consternation" ?
This is nothing compared to the angry mob that every year seems to want to shred to pieces the poor manufacturers reps at NAB....now that is ire and consternation!
This is nothing compared to the angry mob that every year seems to want to shred to pieces the poor manufacturers reps at NAB....now that is ire and consternation!
Barry_Green
Moderator
But the thing is, you keep saying "an official Panasonic press release." And that's where you're getting caught up in the misunderstanding.
That press release did not come from Panasonic corporate, and it does not and cannot speak for Panasonic globally. That press release came from the LOCAL Panasonic marketing office. As such, it can *only* speak for their local market, and cannot speak for other territories. I think you're trying to read into it that what happens in the UK applies to the US, and that's simply not true. Ask the UK and even Canada customers how they feel about not getting rebates and Magic Bullet etc...
Heck, even if Panasonic Canada had put out that press release, it would still have NO BEARING on the US. Panasonic Canada could decide tomorrow to slash the prices of all their products in half, and issue a press release saying "effective today, all Panasonic products are 50% off" -- and that would have *nothing* to do with the US. Or Europe. Or Oceania. It would only be local to Panasonic Canada.
In fact, if it wasn't for the Internet, you never would have heard about the press release in question at all.
So yes, the cameras are made in the same factory. But the realities of what happens in a factory, vs. the marketing-speak that makes it into a press release, have little to do with each other. The reality of the matter is that Europe sets its own prices according to what they think their customers will pay and what they think the product is worth in their local market. Japan does the same. The US does the same. European products have traditionally cost WAY more than the same product in the US, even after exchange rates are taken into account! And the whole reason a "gray market" exists is because there are other countries where the relative price is much lower, because the economy and the population cannot afford as much over there.
The comments about pricing are from a LOCAL press release, one that is *not* issued globally, and one that has no bearing whatsoever on the US market or the Australian market or the Chinese market. It's local. Just like the $500 rebate is local here -- they don't get that rebate.
Have there been actual manufacturing efficiencies made? I don't know. Does it make for a good cover story for them to explain why they're finally dropping the price, in order to match what the US has been doing for about a year? Sure. Is that WHY they worded it that way? I don't know. But it's irrelevant, as it's a LOCAL thing. Not global. Not "official panasonic press release", but an official "panasonic UK" press release.
As far as "prices of all Panasonic's miniDV have been brought down" -- heck, that may be true globally as far as I know. Prices always go down. But keep this in mind: the DVX100B is a NEW PRODUCT. It's not the 100A. If the 100A was to continue on, maybe it would do so at a lower price. And maybe the 100B would cost more. I'm not just blowing smoke, I'm trying to make sense of this. Keep in mind that when the 100 was replaced by the 100A it was accompanied by a $200 price INCREASE. So if we use that as a model, perhaps the 100B was supposed to cost $4195, but because of these supposed manufacturing efficiencies they were able to bring the price down to where it's the same as the older, less-full-featured model it's replacing?
In any case, I don't know how else to explain it. I've held the 100B, I've used it, I've examined it thoroughly, I've read the press releases, and it's available right now for anyone in Los Angeles to go down to RESFest and see it (and those in Chicago will soon get a chance). The MSRP in the US is going to be $3995. Whether there'll be a bundle or rebates or any of that has yet to be announced. And whatever they're talking about "improved color reproduction" is news to me, I certainly didn't notice it if it's there.
That press release did not come from Panasonic corporate, and it does not and cannot speak for Panasonic globally. That press release came from the LOCAL Panasonic marketing office. As such, it can *only* speak for their local market, and cannot speak for other territories. I think you're trying to read into it that what happens in the UK applies to the US, and that's simply not true. Ask the UK and even Canada customers how they feel about not getting rebates and Magic Bullet etc...
Heck, even if Panasonic Canada had put out that press release, it would still have NO BEARING on the US. Panasonic Canada could decide tomorrow to slash the prices of all their products in half, and issue a press release saying "effective today, all Panasonic products are 50% off" -- and that would have *nothing* to do with the US. Or Europe. Or Oceania. It would only be local to Panasonic Canada.
In fact, if it wasn't for the Internet, you never would have heard about the press release in question at all.
So yes, the cameras are made in the same factory. But the realities of what happens in a factory, vs. the marketing-speak that makes it into a press release, have little to do with each other. The reality of the matter is that Europe sets its own prices according to what they think their customers will pay and what they think the product is worth in their local market. Japan does the same. The US does the same. European products have traditionally cost WAY more than the same product in the US, even after exchange rates are taken into account! And the whole reason a "gray market" exists is because there are other countries where the relative price is much lower, because the economy and the population cannot afford as much over there.
The comments about pricing are from a LOCAL press release, one that is *not* issued globally, and one that has no bearing whatsoever on the US market or the Australian market or the Chinese market. It's local. Just like the $500 rebate is local here -- they don't get that rebate.
Have there been actual manufacturing efficiencies made? I don't know. Does it make for a good cover story for them to explain why they're finally dropping the price, in order to match what the US has been doing for about a year? Sure. Is that WHY they worded it that way? I don't know. But it's irrelevant, as it's a LOCAL thing. Not global. Not "official panasonic press release", but an official "panasonic UK" press release.
As far as "prices of all Panasonic's miniDV have been brought down" -- heck, that may be true globally as far as I know. Prices always go down. But keep this in mind: the DVX100B is a NEW PRODUCT. It's not the 100A. If the 100A was to continue on, maybe it would do so at a lower price. And maybe the 100B would cost more. I'm not just blowing smoke, I'm trying to make sense of this. Keep in mind that when the 100 was replaced by the 100A it was accompanied by a $200 price INCREASE. So if we use that as a model, perhaps the 100B was supposed to cost $4195, but because of these supposed manufacturing efficiencies they were able to bring the price down to where it's the same as the older, less-full-featured model it's replacing?
In any case, I don't know how else to explain it. I've held the 100B, I've used it, I've examined it thoroughly, I've read the press releases, and it's available right now for anyone in Los Angeles to go down to RESFest and see it (and those in Chicago will soon get a chance). The MSRP in the US is going to be $3995. Whether there'll be a bundle or rebates or any of that has yet to be announced. And whatever they're talking about "improved color reproduction" is news to me, I certainly didn't notice it if it's there.
Coco Bermudez
New member
Barry:
when you stated:
-And whatever they're talking about "improved color reproduction" is news to me, I certainly didn't notice it if it's there
Can you then say that there was no obvious "new" set of gamma curves added to the 100B?
when you stated:
-And whatever they're talking about "improved color reproduction" is news to me, I certainly didn't notice it if it's there
Can you then say that there was no obvious "new" set of gamma curves added to the 100B?
HDCinema25
New member
gnasr said:
Just paint it black, and you're set.
Kev
Barry_Green
Moderator
Until the US division issues a press release, I don't know what I can say and can't say. However, if you didn't see any new gamma curves listed in the menus from IBC, and you don't see any in the model that's available to be examined at RESFest, then that would be a good indication taht there are no new gamma curves in the 100B.Super8 said:
Coco Bermudez
New member
Thanks Barry:
One indication for me is to look at upcoming web commerce pages for some dealers that will carry the DVX100B. When the DVX 100 was ready to be replaced by the DVX100A I searched the web looking for some web commerce pages not yet published. I was looking to see the new features. I myself used to work a couple of years ago for a Panasonic, JVC, and Sony dealer in Miami and we would get advance notice of the features so we could prepare our literature and web commerce so that when the camera was ready for sale, we were ready to go.
Last time the 100 was replaced by the 100A the features listed by some "pre" commerce sites were dead on. I am starting to see around the web some Panasonic DVX100B "ready to be made public" web commerce pages... (but then again that means crap sometimes).
It seems that the concensus among these dealer pages for the DVX100B is:
Allows synchronous setting of time-code values in multiple cameras
User-settable files can be copied from camera to camera
Remote control of focus and iris (wired)
EVF and LCD can display images in 16:9 letter-box form
Black Sapphire color
Again, this is only me searching around...IT MEANS nothing probably...but who knows....I might just be ready to get my hefty rebate check and upgrade when the DVX100C comes out.
One indication for me is to look at upcoming web commerce pages for some dealers that will carry the DVX100B. When the DVX 100 was ready to be replaced by the DVX100A I searched the web looking for some web commerce pages not yet published. I was looking to see the new features. I myself used to work a couple of years ago for a Panasonic, JVC, and Sony dealer in Miami and we would get advance notice of the features so we could prepare our literature and web commerce so that when the camera was ready for sale, we were ready to go.
Last time the 100 was replaced by the 100A the features listed by some "pre" commerce sites were dead on. I am starting to see around the web some Panasonic DVX100B "ready to be made public" web commerce pages... (but then again that means crap sometimes).
It seems that the concensus among these dealer pages for the DVX100B is:
Allows synchronous setting of time-code values in multiple cameras
User-settable files can be copied from camera to camera
Remote control of focus and iris (wired)
EVF and LCD can display images in 16:9 letter-box form
Black Sapphire color
Again, this is only me searching around...IT MEANS nothing probably...but who knows....I might just be ready to get my hefty rebate check and upgrade when the DVX100C comes out.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I believe all those features were also confirmed by Mikko in his IBC report, along with many more.
Coco Bermudez
New member
Barry_Green said:
More features than speculated? ah man.....now I back to waiting! The suspense is eating me up!
- Status