Exposing for highlights?

[Sttratos]

I have a question about best way to set camera for exposing for highlights method.
I know people will say to test this myself and this type of reply gets very old quick. But I want to know opinions of experts also besides my own. I'm not expert.
Is best to set pedestal a bit higher like -2 or zero to capture more shadow detail? Since you will need to grade up to lift midtones with blacks less crushed maybe you get less noise?
Or is best to set pedestal lower like -5 or -9 to move the latitude down the slider and protect highlights more? But this will crush blacks more and will have more noise when you grade up no?

[David W. Jones]

OK, you are not going to like my post either.... Test this for yourself and see which one works best for your particular shooting situation. Look there is not one setting to rule them all. Sometimes one method gives better results then the other given the circumstances of the shooting conditions and post workflow, and sometimes it won't. You admit you are not an expert, so when the experts you ask tell you to test this on your end, rather than getting upset by an answer you were not looking for, instead why not take their advice and allocate an hour out of your lifetime and find out what works best for YOU, your shooting conditions, and your post workflow?

All the Best!

Dave

[Adamsenoj]

OK, you are not going to like my post either.... Test this for yourself and see which one works best for your particular shooting situation. Look there is not one setting to rule them all. Sometimes one method gives better results then the other given the circumstances of the shooting conditions and post workflow, and sometimes it won't. You admit you are not an expert, so when the experts you ask tell you to test this on your end, rather than getting upset by an answer you were not looking for, instead why not take their advice and allocate an hour out of your lifetime and find out what works best for YOU, your shooting conditions, and your post workflow?

All the Best!

Dave

Honestly what's the point of this reply? To me it sounds more like you wanted to tease the guy than offer any help, specially after he specifically said he wasn't interested in such a reply. Really what's the point? This to me reeks of elitism, sorry.
Maybe by saying he's not an expert he means he wouldn't be able to either properly conduct the tests or properly judging the results? I agree that testing for yourself is always the best, but if I think a thread is pointless (not saying this one is) I will just not reply.

To the OP, this depends on the situation. If under harsh sunlight I would think the second option would probably produce better results. But the fact of the matter is, with a camera such as the AF100 there's only so much you can do to maximize dynamic range. You can't really extend the real dynamic range of the camera. You can only play "tricks".

[XSVpro]

I have a question about best way to set camera for exposing for highlights method.
I know people will say to test this myself and this type of reply gets very old quick. But I want to know opinions of experts also besides my own. I'm not expert.
Is best to set pedestal a bit higher like -2 or zero to capture more shadow detail? Since you will need to grade up to lift midtones with blacks less crushed maybe you get less noise?
Or is best to set pedestal lower like -5 or -9 to move the latitude down the slider and protect highlights more? But this will crush blacks more and will have more noise when you grade up no?

Hi, i get where you are coming from, your question will drum up a lot of "test for yourself young padawan" but as with the scene files you probably want to test other operators methods along with what you have learned already, its funny how this advice doesnt come up in the scene file thread, no "work it out for yourself" lines over there just a lot of examples and recipes to try out. No fortune cookie answers either but ultimately you will need to try these suggestions out as what is an acceptable image for me might not be for you and respectfully, the amount of post work I may sign up for could be greater than what is ideal for you.

You pretty much have it figured out. Im going on that we are just working with daylight exteriors (as interiors will more than likely offer you greater light control) and that post is where the image will be created, not in camera. Ill try and offer some advice.

In regards to the pedestal, I wouldn't go to far over or below the sweet spot for work you will be grading, this is an 8 bit camera at the end of the day, -2 or 3 at most for baked in work and no higher than +2, If I am relaying my image from the AF100 to a high def screen at an event I will dial in the contrast with the Gamma, matrix and pedestal to create a low noise punchy finished image for the event but I wouldn't go in this direction for challenging dynamic range scenarios. Depending on the scene you will sometimes have to admit defeat and lean the image towards exposing for the shadows or the light, personally I would try and find shots that don't push you in that direction or see if a graduated ND filter will work (pretty much only in locked off shots) or a bounce card/reflector.

What I would do is shoot a challenging scene with a low noise scene file recepie exposing for the highlights and see how far you can acceptably bring the mid tones and shadows up in post and do the same for the highlights. You can generally bring the shadows up a little more than bringing the highlights down but I have found that only a slight lift of 1 to 3 stops max on the shadows and 1 to 1-1/2 stops down on the highlights is acceptable. Take a RAW photograph of the scene if you can and use that as your ideal exposure guide for the scene, you won't get close to its range but it will be helpful for you to see just where the 8 bit compressed falls down. Use the waveform monitor on the camera and in your NLE and note down what is being recorded and how far it can be pushed, pulled.

In post, noise reduction software such as neat video can help you claw half a stop back from the shadows which effectively allows you to give the highlights half a stop extra headroom for post but its all a challenging game. To much noise reduction in camera can bring in the dreaded banding so you need a little noise in there. Work with the scene files on this forum alongside this testing as your ultimately looking for a recipe that doesn't introduce a ton of noise once you begin lifting shadows and mid tones.

On the iPhone there is an app called sun seeker that let's you plot the path of the sun, great app for helping you plan those difficult outside shots, sometimes over head lighting is the easiest to work with, leaning in the silhouette/protecting highlight way can be the best course of action at golden hour (sun up, sun down). Also have a look at mFlare from www.motionVFX.com , I have used this app to build a simple light glow effect without the actual lens flare graphics to use on over exposed areas of the sky to fake better highlight bloom/roll off, you may like the flares and can build fairly soft natural ones that will help in post.

I by no means pretend to be an expert, this is where I am at on my DP/Editing journey, combine this testing with a light meter if you can.

If anything I said helps then great, if not then you have something not to do next time.

[David W. Jones]

Honestly what's the point of this reply? To me it sounds more like you wanted to tease the guy than offer any help, specially after he specifically said he wasn't interested in such a reply. Really what's the point? This to me reeks of elitism, sorry.
Maybe by saying he's not an expert he means he wouldn't be able to either properly conduct the tests or properly judging the results? I agree that testing for yourself is always the best, but if I think a thread is pointless (not saying this one is) I will just not reply.

To the OP, this depends on the situation. If under harsh sunlight I would think the second option would probably produce better results. But the fact of the matter is, with a camera such as the AF100 there's only so much you can do to maximize dynamic range. You can't really extend the real dynamic range of the camera. You can only play "tricks".

So when I reply "It depends on the shooting situation" it reeks of elitism, but when you reply "It depends on the situation" all is good?

Seriously, how long does it take to shoot sample A with the pedestal set to X, then to enter the menu, change the pedestal to Y, and shoot sample B?

[Adamsenoj]

So when I reply "It depends on the shooting situation" it reeks of elitism, but when you reply "It depends on the situation" all is good?

Seriously, how long does it take to shoot sample A with the pedestal set to X, then to enter the menu, change the pedestal to Y, and shoot sample B?

No. What reeks of elitism is you posting on every other thread the same reply, "test it yourself." I don't think anybody needs to register on these forums and hang out here just to read you telling them to test themselves. If everybody would be on their own there wouldn't be a need for a community such as this to exist in the first place. Besides, I did offer my opinion on the matter rather than just making a snide reply.

[XSVpro]

So when I reply "It depends on the shooting situation" it reeks of elitism, but when you reply "It depends on the situation" all is good?

Seriously, how long does it take to shoot sample A with the pedestal set to X, then to enter the menu, change the pedestal to Y, and shoot sample B?

Dave, your right, im not attacking you specifically, it doesn't take very long and you made a good point that it delends on the situation but the man asked for some advice and your advice was to go work it out for yourself, why do we not have that attitude with scene files? Why do we share that information in gusto and on other topics a kind of snobbery comes out? We could be sharing comparisons here with post graded work, it would tie in nicely with the scene file recipe thread don't you think? A more specific "how best to set the camera up for clawing back X stops of shadow/highlight detail in X situation"

If someone asks, "how do I, or what is the best way of approaching this?" It's a little unfair to reply "work it out" or "how hard can it be", specially when he has asked for that kind of reply to not be entered. He may of been asking a dud question and if the only answer was the one he stated he didn't want then a dead thread would probably let him know but I'm sure some of you guys could share your work arounds in these situations?

[Lpowell]

My AF100 rule of thumb is this: you can expose for either highlight detail or shadow detail, but not both at the same time. If you're going for a DSLR look, crush the pedestal as low as you need and forget about shadow detail. If you want something more cinematic, raise the pedestal and use flat, controlled lighting to minimize contrast. That will allow you to grade the gray shadows down in post rather than attempting to lift the blacks from a high-contrast take.

[Adamsenoj]

My AF100 rule of thumb is this: you can expose for either highlight detail or shadow detail, but not both at the same time. If you're going for a DSLR look, crush the pedestal as low as you need and forget about shadow detail. If you want something more cinematic, raise the pedestal and use flat, controlled lighting to minimize contrast. That will allow you to grade the gray shadows down in post rather than attempting to lift the blacks from a high-contrast take.

Honestly, this is true for everything video, AF100 or not. With exception of cameras in the high-end.

[Shooter]

I have a question about best way to set camera for exposing for highlights method.

Short answer. Lighting.



I light the shadows, the gammas and the highlights...then I set the camera to expose all those within the IRE range on the waveform.

Because I have done my own AF102 tests...I know that I must critically protect the highlights. To a degree I protect the Shadows as well and I position the gamma. All this is done with lighting / control and then I can set the exposure based entirely on the Highlight.

There is no single camera setting that suits every situation. eg highlights maybe 95% or they maybe 65%. Its a combination of many things.

It depends on what you want the image to "look like" but lighting is the ultimate answer. ( and I dont mean a truck full of lights)

FWIW @ the O.P We shoot Default Camera Scene Settings and light to them. Never the other way round. (You cant fix lighting with a camera setting!)

I have also tested how the footage from this camera works in post ...so I also know how and where to stretch the levels.

I am an advocate for doing ones own tests if one ever wants to be in creative control of ones own camera and the images it makes. I have no problem with anyone requesting advice and I have no problem offering it either. The advice I give is based on years of experience and my own tests. Tests I can and do show to others as way of maybe helping them understand.

I do have a problem with those that look for the "magic bullet" and take a lazy approach to learning the craft though. eg "dont tell me to do my own tests"

...and I have said this many times about Scene Files as well.

Criticising those that offer any advice is "flaming" , personal attack and actually offers nothing positive to the subject of the thread.


@XSVpro

Seems you maybe advising the OP to do his own test here!

What I would do is shoot a challenging scene with a low noise scene file recepie exposing for the highlights and see how far you can acceptably bring the mid tones and shadows up in post and do the same for the highlights. You can generally bring the shadows up a little more than bringing the highlights down but I have found that only a slight lift of 1 to 3 stops max on the shadows and 1 to 1-1/2 stops down on the highlights is acceptable. Take a RAW photograph of the scene if you can and use that as your ideal exposure guide for the scene, you won't get close to its range but it will be helpful for you to see just where the 8 bit compressed falls down. Use the waveform monitor on the camera and in your NLE and note down what is being recorded and how far it can be pushed, pulled.

I concur mostly with that.

[XSVpro]

Short answer. Lighting.

@XSVpro

Seems you maybe advising the OP to do his own test here!

I concur mostly with that.

I can't help but put that in there as you must test something, its not instructions on how to operate a TV its advice on how I get to my ballpark, I think this is what the OP is after, where to start.

How do you approach a challenging exposure situation outside with the sun?. We don't all own broadcast calibrated monitors or work in such controlled environments and most use varying scene files but we all have the AF100s waveform monitor. Seriously this has become a bit of a talking down to thread as per usual on DVXuser and it could just be a friendly discussion.

Shooter, can you give a rule of thumb figure for shooting outside with a bright sky as the challenge? You shoot with default picture profiles so please, what file do you go for, how many stops have you tested that you can go over and under by? I'm of the opinion that raising the shadows in post could introduce some noise so I modify my scene file to suit. You don't so what's your approach when trying to hypothetically balance exposure based on post correction judgment?

I read just fine and we're talking over a virtual coffee here so no need for words in bold, no problem if its an inconvenience

[Sttratos]

Honestly what's the point of this reply? To me it sounds more like you wanted to tease the guy than offer any help, specially after he specifically said he wasn't interested in such a reply. Really what's the point? This to me reeks of elitism, sorry.
Maybe by saying he's not an expert he means he wouldn't be able to either properly conduct the tests or properly judging the results? I agree that testing for yourself is always the best, but if I think a thread is pointless (not saying this one is) I will just not reply.

To the OP, this depends on the situation. If under harsh sunlight I would think the second option would probably produce better results. But the fact of the matter is, with a camera such as the AF100 there's only so much you can do to maximize dynamic range. You can't really extend the real dynamic range of the camera. You can only play "tricks".

Thank you. You understand. So you choose lower pedestal? Can you say why?

[Sttratos]

Hi, i get where you are coming from, your question will drum up a lot of "test for yourself young padawan" but as with the scene files you probably want to test other operators methods along with what you have learned already, its funny how this advice doesnt come up in the scene file thread, no "work it out for yourself" lines over there just a lot of examples and recipes to try out. No fortune cookie answers either but ultimately you will need to try these suggestions out as what is an acceptable image for me might not be for you and respectfully, the amount of post work I may sign up for could be greater than what is ideal for you.

You pretty much have it figured out. Im going on that we are just working with daylight exteriors (as interiors will more than likely offer you greater light control) and that post is where the image will be created, not in camera. Ill try and offer some advice.

In regards to the pedestal, I wouldn't go to far over or below the sweet spot for work you will be grading, this is an 8 bit camera at the end of the day, -2 or 3 at most for baked in work and no higher than +2, If I am relaying my image from the AF100 to a high def screen at an event I will dial in the contrast with the Gamma, matrix and pedestal to create a low noise punchy finished image for the event but I wouldn't go in this direction for challenging dynamic range scenarios. Depending on the scene you will sometimes have to admit defeat and lean the image towards exposing for the shadows or the light, personally I would try and find shots that don't push you in that direction or see if a graduated ND filter will work (pretty much only in locked off shots) or a bounce card/reflector.

What I would do is shoot a challenging scene with a low noise scene file recepie exposing for the highlights and see how far you can acceptably bring the mid tones and shadows up in post and do the same for the highlights. You can generally bring the shadows up a little more than bringing the highlights down but I have found that only a slight lift of 1 to 3 stops max on the shadows and 1 to 1-1/2 stops down on the highlights is acceptable. Take a RAW photograph of the scene if you can and use that as your ideal exposure guide for the scene, you won't get close to its range but it will be helpful for you to see just where the 8 bit compressed falls down. Use the waveform monitor on the camera and in your NLE and note down what is being recorded and how far it can be pushed, pulled.

In post, noise reduction software such as neat video can help you claw half a stop back from the shadows which effectively allows you to give the highlights half a stop extra headroom for post but its all a challenging game. To much noise reduction in camera can bring in the dreaded banding so you need a little noise in there. Work with the scene files on this forum alongside this testing as your ultimately looking for a recipe that doesn't introduce a ton of noise once you begin lifting shadows and mid tones.

On the iPhone there is an app called sun seeker that let's you plot the path of the sun, great app for helping you plan those difficult outside shots, sometimes over head lighting is the easiest to work with, leaning in the silhouette/protecting highlight way can be the best course of action at golden hour (sun up, sun down). Also have a look at mFlare from www.motionVFX.com , I have used this app to build a simple light glow effect without the actual lens flare graphics to use on over exposed areas of the sky to fake better highlight bloom/roll off, you may like the flares and can build fairly soft natural ones that will help in post.

I by no means pretend to be an expert, this is where I am at on my DP/Editing journey, combine this testing with a light meter if you can.

If anything I said helps then great, if not then you have something not to do next time.

Big advice. Thank you. What do you think is sweet spot for pedestal? I always use cinelike d for gamma and don't care if a bit noisy.

[Sttratos]

My AF100 rule of thumb is this: you can expose for either highlight detail or shadow detail, but not both at the same time. If you're going for a DSLR look, crush the pedestal as low as you need and forget about shadow detail. If you want something more cinematic, raise the pedestal and use flat, controlled lighting to minimize contrast. That will allow you to grade the gray shadows down in post rather than attempting to lift the blacks from a high-contrast take.

Yes. But no compromise possible?
Because outside is hard to use lights to minimize contrast without budget. So compromise must be made? You think for cinematic shooting outside in sun is better to raise pedestal? Use flat profile like abel or marvel then?

[hscully]

A while ago I tested and I found that with Cine D a master ped of -3 was right for most situations. It is my preference really because it keeps down the noise in the shadows. You mentioned that's not an issue and preserving shadow detail was important. I keep it down a little because I like the light falling off and am not interested usually in preserving detail that contains noise that is antsy and not grainy. That's where I draw the line. That's the compromise I found with Cine D anyway. It changes with other gammas.

Even at -3 on the master ped, I will pull those blacks down a little more in post, as I say, I like the fall off.

That's about as flat as I dare get with Cine D. It's nice to see good detail in shadows on film and really expensive cameras but for me it's about keeping the highlights on faces right. If I get that, I'm usually OK.