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Would bypassing AF100 to Atomos Samurai give me better results for chromakeying???

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    Would bypassing AF100 to Atomos Samurai give me better results for chromakeying???

    If my green screen scene is properly/evenly lit, will it I get much cleaner results bypassing the AF100 AVCHD codec and recording to Apple Pro Res via the Atomos Samurai?

    I've heard many people say they great keys using only the AF100 so long as the green screen scene is well lit.

    But do you get much better results using the Atomos Samurai or Ki Pro Mini?
    If you're recording straight to Pro Res, will it be much easier to pull a clean key?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback.

    #2
    Yes
    Correct
    Yes
    Yes

    Pleased to have helped.
    www.shooterfilm.co.nz

    Panasonic AF102

    SONY-FS700R

    RR baseplate , F/F, Shoot35 Cinebox, Panasonic 1700HD Monitors. Adaptimax adapters. Ikan VX7e. Samurai

    Prime Lenses: Nikkors . 20/f2.8, 24/f2.8, 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.4, 50/f2, Micro 55/f3.5, Micro 60/f2.8, 85/f1.8, 105/f2.5, 135/f2.8, Contax -Zeiss 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.7, 85/f2.8

    VariPrimes: Nikkor 17-35/f2.8, Nikkor 28-70/f2.8,

    GH2. Olympus 14-54 MkII

    Cartoni , Weaver Heads , Miller legs. Zhuter Slider

    Comment


      #3
      Shooter's the man....

      if you wanna get the best results .. you can go uncompressed to a hyperdeck shuttle...
      although you'll blow through media like nobody's business.

      jeff

      Comment


        #4
        Jeff...I am not sure if the Hyperdeck would actually produce even better results because I do not know what the uncompressed format in the device records the samples as.

        eg 4.2.2 or 4.4.4

        If any one does know please advise.

        Meantime... 4.2.2 will always be better than 4.2.0 for post work (then take into account 8 bit vs 10 bit)


        "horses for courses" - dont under estimate what we can achieve with the native files off the AF100. They are pretty impressive.
        www.shooterfilm.co.nz

        Panasonic AF102

        SONY-FS700R

        RR baseplate , F/F, Shoot35 Cinebox, Panasonic 1700HD Monitors. Adaptimax adapters. Ikan VX7e. Samurai

        Prime Lenses: Nikkors . 20/f2.8, 24/f2.8, 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.4, 50/f2, Micro 55/f3.5, Micro 60/f2.8, 85/f1.8, 105/f2.5, 135/f2.8, Contax -Zeiss 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.7, 85/f2.8

        VariPrimes: Nikkor 17-35/f2.8, Nikkor 28-70/f2.8,

        GH2. Olympus 14-54 MkII

        Cartoni , Weaver Heads , Miller legs. Zhuter Slider

        Comment


          #5
          It's 4:2:2 / 10bit in a REC 601 or 709 colorspace ..

          Although with a CMOS sensor, I wonder if the compression artifacts
          would matter when keying.

          jeff

          Comment


            #6
            It is my experience/understanding that the AF100 outputs uncompressed 8 bit 4:2:2 from the SDI port. The Hyperdeck records this in a 10 bit 4:2:2 file.

            Comment


              #7
              Absolutely.
              Paul
              Lizardlandvideo.com
              Latexfilmservice.com
              Camera and Grip Electric Rentals in Dallas and Shreveport
              Phoenix Video Productions

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Shooter View Post
                "horses for courses" - dont under estimate what we can achieve with the native files off the AF100. They are pretty impressive.
                To the OP, I shot some green screen two weeks ago with my HMC150. I handed the footage to the producer, and he said he was easily capable of pulling keys with it without issue. So long as you light it well(!) you should be fine with the native footage of the AF100. The Samurai should be better, but the AF100 native footage will still be pretty good.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Thanks very much everybody. I agree Mike. I've had very good results with my AF100 after dialing down my sharpness settings.

                  I was always getting terrible buzzing/noise/artifacting around the edges of my subject until someone told me to turn down the sharpness settings on my AF100 for chromakeying. I got much cleaner results after that. That's why I wonder if using a device like a Samurai wouldnt give me considerably cleaner results.

                  Is the noise around edges caused by the compressed nature of the AVCHD codec? I'm using Adobe Keylight 2.0 to chromakey.

                  Regarding the Hyperdeck shuttle, how would that give you better results than the Samurai? Isn't the Samurai Apple ProRes 422? I read that the hyperdeck shuttle features 10 bit 422, but I also read that AF100 only allows 8 bit out on the SDI port. Am I mistaken?
                  Last edited by Nicholas Natteau; 01-28-2012, 10:53 AM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Just did some chroma keying with AF-100 internal codec. Had AF on my "low noise" camera profile and the keys were very good. By very good I mean the client loved them. I did take care with the lighting of the "blue" screen (yeah I know I gotta get one of those "green" screens but never had any issues with my old "blue" one)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Nicholas,

                      You are correct, the AF100 only outputs 8-bit 4:2:2. Recording into a 10bit recorder, won't improve the quality. In theory the Hyperdeck should get the best possible image as it is not compressing the image at all, no codec, no compression artifacts. The ProRes recorders are compressing so technically there will be some loss in quality. But in practice, I've not been able to see any visual difference at all between my Hyperdeck and PIX 240. I would assume the Samurai would be similar to the PIX as they share the same compression codec, but I haven't used one myself.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The thing that makes the general difference for an improved chroma key (and I.Q) is the last digit in the color sampling line. 4.2.X

                        4.2.2 vs 4.2.0

                        10bit vs 8bit is a four-fold difference but I have no way of knowing what technical advantage or otherwise happens when an 8 bit signal is recorded by a 10bit device. I assume it is padded but dont know how that works except...working in a 10 bit space such as Da Vinci Resolve , it is superior to any other cc / grading experience.

                        This manufests as the subtlety of hue, luma and gamma control.
                        www.shooterfilm.co.nz

                        Panasonic AF102

                        SONY-FS700R

                        RR baseplate , F/F, Shoot35 Cinebox, Panasonic 1700HD Monitors. Adaptimax adapters. Ikan VX7e. Samurai

                        Prime Lenses: Nikkors . 20/f2.8, 24/f2.8, 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.4, 50/f2, Micro 55/f3.5, Micro 60/f2.8, 85/f1.8, 105/f2.5, 135/f2.8, Contax -Zeiss 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.7, 85/f2.8

                        VariPrimes: Nikkor 17-35/f2.8, Nikkor 28-70/f2.8,

                        GH2. Olympus 14-54 MkII

                        Cartoni , Weaver Heads , Miller legs. Zhuter Slider

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thanks again everybody.

                          Stephen, if you were to record a properly lit green screen scene with two AF100s: one connected to an Atomos Samurai recording the footage as AppleProRes HQ and one connected to a Hyperdeck shuttle recording the same footage as uncompressed 10-bit ...

                          Would the uncompressed footage from the Hyperdeck give you even better/cleaner keys (because it's uncompressed) than the slightly compressed Apple ProRes HQ footage?

                          Just asking because I'm trying to decide which device to get...the Hyperdeck shuttle or the Samurai.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Nicholas. If you are shooting Lord of the Rings or Avatar...go uncompressed.

                            But...your decision maybe needs to consider the hardware and the way it functions for your purpose as well.

                            Download the User Manuals of each device and you will see the differences. The Samurai is far more versatile and has many useable functions. The HD Shuttle is a manual Recorder with only REC On/Off and replay. No user settings at all ( although the MK2 will have a couple for codec choice obviously)

                            Do consider your post production workflow. Uncompressed footage is massive eg 120GB = 11 minutes (ish).

                            Here is one way I use the Samurai. as in a shoot last week.

                            Dual Record to Internal and external.
                            The clips are setup to be numerically identical with in the file names eg 00032.mts = jobname_32.mov
                            The AVCHD goes into my NLE
                            The SSD from the Samurai goes to the Flame Compositor Suite
                            I edit and supply EDLs which are edited to conform the filenames and clip locations

                            Huge pluses:

                            End of a days shoot...having footage on two devices is of considerable value to my piece of mind.

                            We wrap faster - no backing up at the studio / location.

                            Post house which is Mac based does not have to transcode and rolls straight into post.

                            Post house prefers the 4.2.2

                            Insurance company loves the security of the data.

                            My HD Shuttle is now consigned to be only used for CGI work or SFX.

                            When I get a second AF102 body - I will get a second Samurai.
                            www.shooterfilm.co.nz

                            Panasonic AF102

                            SONY-FS700R

                            RR baseplate , F/F, Shoot35 Cinebox, Panasonic 1700HD Monitors. Adaptimax adapters. Ikan VX7e. Samurai

                            Prime Lenses: Nikkors . 20/f2.8, 24/f2.8, 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.4, 50/f2, Micro 55/f3.5, Micro 60/f2.8, 85/f1.8, 105/f2.5, 135/f2.8, Contax -Zeiss 28/f2.8, 35/f2.8, 50/f1.7, 85/f2.8

                            VariPrimes: Nikkor 17-35/f2.8, Nikkor 28-70/f2.8,

                            GH2. Olympus 14-54 MkII

                            Cartoni , Weaver Heads , Miller legs. Zhuter Slider

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Well said Shooter.

                              The big visual benefit comes from using an external recorder as it gets you a 4:2:2 stream. The visual difference between the external recorders is smaller.

                              I use a PIX 240 for similar workflow benefits that Shooter gets from his Samurai. In my opinion the primary reason to buy the Hyperdeck is price. The only reason I have one is that is shipped first, before the other SDI recorders. That said, for the money it's pretty amazing. It's cheaper than most HDMI - HD-SDI cross convertors including Black Magics own.

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