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    I'm starting to feel like the vaccine bullying is a crock (on top of being mean). Singapore has 81% vaccination and is battling a record wave of covid. It sure seems like vaccines PROTECT the vaccinated from bad outcomes, but don't PREVENT transmission from the vaccinated to others. Which means that the whole accusation of being "selfish" by not getting vaccinated is just plain wrong.

    Basically, I think masking makes more sense in terms of reducing transmission. You get vaccinated to protect yourself, not others.

    And mind the downside risk from vaccination: "US researchers say teenagers are more likely to get vaccine-related myocarditis than end up in hospital with Covid" https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...suggests-study

    The pediatric vaccine is a lower dose than the adult vaccine. Boosters are being recommended to senior citizens but not younger. It seems to me like you need a stronger dose if you have a weaker immune system. I don't think they should be giving the same dose to a 20-year old as to a 50-year old. And the 20-year old is at low risk from covid complications anyway.
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    "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

    Comment


      Originally posted by drboffa View Post
      I'm certainly not here to defend the US (or global) media landscape. It's a cesspool. I'd only offer the counterpoints that (1) even if it was less clickbaity in the past it was still rife with bias, incompetence, discrimination, and corruption; and (2) there are lots of really great independent news outlets doing important journalism these days—the issue is they don't reach a wide enough audience....
      100% this

      Comment


        Originally posted by ahalpert View Post
        To be certain, these institutions always had to worry about their bottom line... But I also think that it is quite possible to get the right insurance if you know the right sites. But I do think that the social mores of the modern-day USA is to maximize your profit by thinking loosely and flexibly about the services you offer. Sometimes, I think that's sensible (as with Amazon opening up its server and cloud capacity to external customers via Amazon S3. as long as doing so doesn't jeopardize the internal functioning of that infrastructure, then they're in no way harming the core business of Amazon. but Amazon never served a specific cultural purpose anyway)

        I was thinking about academic rigor on the part of the students. I graduated college in 2009 and it was an open secret/joke that few if any students actually did the reading. Professors spoke openly about Cliffsnotes. Then there's the rampant drug use and the minor alcohol dependency that so many people graduated with. (And this wasn't a party school, it was an ivy league (Brown), although Brown might be considered the party school of the ivy league. But I've heard they drink more heavily at Dartmouth.)

        My belief is that it's harder to get into these colleges than it is to graduate from them.

        One aspect of the customer-based approach to students is that you view the relationship as transactional (money exchanged for credentials) and you try to give the students what they want rather than what they need. Consequently, students are learning less. One of my friends took beginning Spanish his senior year even though he had taken Spanish for 4 years in high school just because he didn't want to mess up his GPA.

        So, I think that the credentials are worth less than they used to be. And there may soon come a reckoning where young people don't see the value of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and several years to get a degree.

        And in journalism - it all feels so clickbaity now. There were always elements of yellow journalism, and political motivations for newspapers and articles. But there didn't used to be a 24-hour news cycle. You used to get a finite amount of news. Most of it was probably dull. And, theoretically, it shouldn't all conform to your prior assumptions about the world.

        I've just seen many examples in recent years of sloppy journalism among the most-respected newspapers, and always in line with the ideology of the customers to whom they pander.

        You're probably right about unions, etc. (Although I think that car factories have been racially well-integrated for a long time? And perhaps also coal mines, etc?) My impression, based on little more than many Hollywood movie plots and a passing knowledge of history, is that corporate raiders in the 1980s moved (in parallel with a broader "free market" political fervor associated with Reaganism) to buy and reshape companies, making them more profitable by shredding their obligations to their employees. The trend continues, as when Bezos bought Whole Foods and stripped health care coverage from its part-time workers (which had been one of the perks of working there). If there's no social penalty for shameless behavior, then the most shameless among us have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

        Similarly, I won't be surprised if tenured professors somehow find themselves on the chopping block as overpaid college administrators try to save themselves in the face of a shrinking student body.
        Great words, ahalpert! Completely agree with you!

        Comment


          "Covid Updates: Federal Regulators Say Benefits Outweigh Key Risks in Vaccine for 5- to 11-Year-Olds"
          https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10...ccine-boosters


          OK... so you're admitting that there are risks for kiddos from taking the vaccine.

          B-b-but my pediatrician said I shouldn't worry about my kids getting covid anyway? Because their covid outcomes are so good (unless they have bad comorbidities).

          So, if they don't really need the vaccine and therefore it has no benefits... And the vaccine comes with risks... Then how could the benefits possibly outweigh the risks...?

          “The overall analysis predicted that the numbers of clinically significant Covid-19-related outcomes prevented would clearly outweigh the numbers of vaccine-associated excess myocarditis cases,” regulators wrote.
          Take a chance that your kid won't draw the short straw and be harmed by the vaccine! Someone's will, but probably not yours! And you better get it for your 11-year old before their next birthday because then we're gonna give them 3x the dose.

          This is so ****ing stupid. I would only get the vaccine for my children if they had comoborbidities. Some children will have huge benefits from covid vaccination and it's not like you can't identify which kids those are
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          "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

          Comment


            Originally posted by ahalpert View Post
            Some children will have huge benefits from covid vaccination and it's not like you can't identify which kids those are
            Not entirely true. There have been perfectly healthy kids who've had fatal outcomes from Covid. Outliers to be sure, but so are people who have bad outcomes with the vaccine. I wouldn't rely on the comorbidity factor to make a decision. But since you personally had an adverse reaction to the vaccine, I would be wary letting your children have it since you share genetics.
            "Money doesn't make films...You just do it and take the initiative." - Werner Herzog

            Comment


              Originally posted by Batutta View Post

              There have been perfectly healthy kids who've had fatal outcomes from Covid. Outliers to be sure, but so are people who have bad outcomes with the vaccine.
              I'd be curious to see how those statistics compare. But i don't even give my kids the flu vaccine, which I have fewer qualms about and might be more beneficial to them. I don't see why I'd have a burning need to give them this
              www.VideoAbe.com

              "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

              Comment


                Originally posted by ahalpert View Post

                I'd be curious to see how those statistics compare. But i don't even give my kids the flu vaccine, which I have fewer qualms about and might be more beneficial to them. I don't see why I'd have a burning need to give them this
                How many billions of people have gotten this vaccine by now, going over a year? I'm sure if it was harming people in mass, we'd be hearing about it by now. The issue with billions of people getting it is that even a fraction of a percent of adverse events is a lot of people still, and human psychology is funny. I am pretty certain at least a couple kids will die from getting the vaccine, and that will terrify parents away from giving it to their kids even if the overall statistics don't justify their concerns. Odds are, nearly all the kids who get the vaccine will be fine. And it could save their life, but that's one of those things you'll never know.
                "Money doesn't make films...You just do it and take the initiative." - Werner Herzog

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Batutta View Post

                  How many billions of people have gotten this vaccine by now, going over a year? I'm sure if it was harming people in mass, we'd be hearing about it by now. The issue with billions of people getting it is that even a fraction of a percent of adverse events is a lot of people still, and human psychology is funny. I am pretty certain at least a couple kids will die from getting the vaccine, and that will terrify parents away from giving it to their kids even if the overall statistics don't justify their concerns. Odds are, nearly all the kids who get the vaccine will be fine. And it could save their life, but that's one of those things you'll never know.
                  Yep. You have ONE kid die from the vaccine and that's the magic bullet argument to not get it. But if 1,000 kids die from COVID itself, the argument is that's a teeny tiny fraction and insignificant in the overall population...

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Batutta View Post

                    How many billions of people have gotten this vaccine by now, going over a year? I'm sure if it was harming people in mass, we'd be hearing about it by now. The issue with billions of people getting it is that even a fraction of a percent of adverse events is a lot of people still, and human psychology is funny. I am pretty certain at least a couple kids will die from getting the vaccine, and that will terrify parents away from giving it to their kids even if the overall statistics don't justify their concerns. Odds are, nearly all the kids who get the vaccine will be fine. And it could save their life, but that's one of those things you'll never know.
                    Its not just about getting killed by either covid or vaccine. There could be lesser negative longterm effects we don't know of yet. Myocarditis isn't cool

                    How many courses of antibiotics have been taken globally? Do we even know all the harmful effects from wiping out your naturally established bacteria? We're just learning about them. We didn't know jack**** about gut bacteria until like 10 years ago. I know multiple people who developed celiac's disease following courses of antibiotics. Antibiotics can save your life. Or, if overused, can make the rest of it worse

                    what about c sections? Totally "safe and effective," right? And consequently totally overused because hospitals are keen to avoid the worst outcomes and don't care as much about achieving optimal outcomes... like not recovering for weeks from surgery or being conscious during baby's birth and getting to hold them after. because of liability.. and they make a lot of money from them. Then it turns out that you're supposed to be colonized by the bacteria in your mother's vaginal canal and your whole biology is lifelong altered if you aren't. (Easy to achieve by swabbing you after a C section. Not that hospitals have caught onto that.)

                    The point is - there can be subtle and longterm effects beyond our ken. scientists and doctors are massively arrogant to have been blindsided so many times in history and continue to have so little doubt.

                    look at the trends. The younger you are, the lower your risk from covid. But the younger you are, the higher your risks of vaccine complications. And you can't convince me that vaccines are actually being vehemently pushed for the benefit of other people and not to lower the risk of exposure to the people pushing them. Ample evidence of that
                    Last edited by ahalpert; 10-23-2021, 04:08 PM.
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                    "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by ahalpert View Post

                      Its not just about getting killed by either covid or vaccine. There could be lesser negative longterm effects we don't know of yet. Myocarditis isn't cool

                      How many courses of antibiotics have been taken globally? Do we even know all the harmful effects from wiping out your naturally established bacteria? We're just learning about them. We didn't know jack**** about gut bacteria until like 10 years ago. I know multiple people who developed celiac's disease following courses of antibiotics. Antibiotics can save your life. Or, if overused, can make the rest of it worse

                      what about c sections? Totally "safe and effective," right? And consequently totally overused because hospitals are keen to avoid the worst outcomes and don't care as much about achieving optimal outcomes... like not recovering for weeks from surgery or being conscious during baby's birth and getting to hold them after. because of liability.. and they make a lot of money from them. Then it turns out that you're supposed to be colonized by the bacteria in your mother's vaginal canal and your whole biology is lifelong altered if you aren't. (Easy to achieve by swabbing you after a C section. Not that hospitals have caught onto that.)

                      The point is - there can be subtle and longterm effects beyond our ken. scientists and doctors are massively arrogant to have been blindsided so many times in history and continue to have so little doubt.

                      look at the trends. The younger you are, the lower your risk from covid. But the younger you are, the higher your risks of vaccine complications. And you can't convince me that vaccines are actually being vehemently pushed for the benefit of other people and not to lower the risk of exposure to the people pushing them. Ample evidence of that
                      It’s funny you mention antibiotics and gut bacteria. A few weeks ago we were talking to a doctor after an unrelated shoot and of course, it turned to Covid and somehow segued into this. He said that when he writes a prescription for antibiotics he also writes the person one for probiotics to re-establish necessary bacteria in the persons digestive system.

                      Comment


                        I should say that I'm not trying to suggest a link between gut bacteria and covid or covid vaccines. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if there were, given how many biological functions and diseases we're finding out are related to the gut microbiome.) It's just an example of the mysteries of our biology and unforeseen negative side effects, all of which leads me to adopt a low-intervention paradigm. I'll consider any treatment or medication, but I'd like to administer as few as possible.

                        Originally posted by Run&Gun View Post

                        It’s funny you mention antibiotics and gut bacteria. A few weeks ago we were talking to a doctor after an unrelated shoot and of course, it turned to Covid and somehow segued into this. He said that when he writes a prescription for antibiotics he also writes the person one for probiotics to re-establish necessary bacteria in the persons digestive system.
                        I think that's a positive development, although I doubt it's sufficient to reverse the effects of the antibiotics.

                        Our understanding of gut microbes is very limited. It seems we can't figure out what the good ones and bad ones are or what our ideal collection should be. (But I get the idea that what you really want is diversity. Diversity is good. An overgrowth of a normally harmless microbe can be potentially deadly. Antibiotics can lead to an overgrowth by allowing the survivors to flourish in the absence of competition, or wiping out the ecosystem altogether and letting whoever gets there first and spreads fastest take over, whereas the critters usually keep each other in balance by competing for space. One way to nourish diversity in your gut is to eat raw, organic fruits and vegetables (whose surfaces are teeming with microbes). Or you can eat dirt if you're a kid.)

                        [YUCK ALERT]

                        Up until about 2010, people were dying from recurrent infections of the bacterium C. difficile. Then doctors realized you could easily cure it with a fecal transplant (which is where you receive an enema of feces from a donor). And they don't really know what species of bacteria are helping you from the donor. They just say, "Hey, that person seems healthy. Maybe you'd be better off if you had their gut bacteria." And personally, I really hope that medicine advances quickly so I'll never be prescribed this treatment...

                        [/YUCK]

                        [QUOTE]Some scientists have suggested that individual human beings can be thought of as "superorganisms";[11] as a typical human digestive system contains 1013 to 1014 microorganisms whose collective genome, the microbiome studied by the Human Microbiome Project, contains at least 100 times as many genes as the human genome itself.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superorganism

                        Gut microbes may be involved (positively and negatively) in all sorts of human conditions and diseases, including alzheimers, because they're involved in digestion and excrete all sorts of chemicals and hormones as a byproduct. Or for other reasons I'm unaware of.

                        [QUOTE[A growing body of experimental and clinical data confirms a key role of gut dysbiosis and gut microbiota-host interactions in neurodegeneration.
                        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6326209/

                        The point is that our understanding of ourselves is truly in its infancy. Don't get me started on how little we know about the brain.
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                        "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

                        Comment


                          from NYT:

                          covid deaths by age.png
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                          "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ahalpert View Post

                            Its not just about getting killed by either covid or vaccine. There could be lesser negative longterm effects we don't know of yet.
                            That wouldn't fit decades of data on vaccines in general. In the vast majority of cases adverse effects from vaccines only manifest in the first few months, and usually much sooner. Vaccines aren't a daily medication so they don't typically have long term effects. It doesn't hang around in your body, it just activates your immune system and then your body does the rest of the work. The actually vaccine material is cleared from your body pretty quickly.
                            "Money doesn't make films...You just do it and take the initiative." - Werner Herzog

                            Comment


                              I agree that that's probably true. But it's not a certainty. And these vaccines are fundamentally different in their mechanism, which lowers the confidence level of making historical comparisons. And that's why some people are more excited by old-school vaccines like Novovax.

                              According to the CDC, "information is not yet available about potential long-term effects" of vaccination-related myocarditis because, well, it's not. And they're investigating: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-outcomes.html

                              Then there's the menstruation-related complications, which clearly don't go away after 6 months and counting for those who are affected.

                              Do I agree that it's probably fine? Yes. But, in my opinion, I don't think you really need the vaccine if you're younger than 30. I would recommend taking a single dose if you're 30-50 unless you have comorbidities. 2 doses above 50. Boosters above 65. Something like that. Just to maximize benefit and minimize risk.

                              I think there's a sociological/psychological dynamic at play where vaccine advocates refuse to admit to complications or doubt because they're invested in the idea that it's perfectly harmless and because they're waging an information war against the vaccine-hesitant. You see a similar dynamic play out on every ideological battlefield.
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                              "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ahalpert View Post
                                But, in my opinion, I don't think you really need the vaccine if you're younger than 30. I would recommend taking a single dose if you're 30-50 unless you have comorbidities. 2 doses above 50. Boosters above 65. Something like that. Just to maximize benefit and minimize risk.
                                What medical education and experience is your opinion based on? This is the problem with forums. Opinions without the qualifier that its completely without any professional knowledge or experience.

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