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GH1 - Frame Rate Conversion Tests - 720 60p & 30p to 24p vs. HPX 170 1080 24p

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    #16
    Originally posted by sdhurley View Post
    on the results... is anyone else seeing some bad color rendition in the clouds/sky on the GH1 footage near the begining of the clips?
    I thought it was the other way around. The sky looks blue in the GH-1 footage where as the HPX seemed white and blown out a little.

    Then again...in the GH-1 clips when you look at the pickup truck...or anything that is supposed to be white...they have some sort of blueish tint to it.

    Thanks for this test JDS.
    Last edited by Ian-T; 06-29-2009, 09:17 AM.

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      #17
      I also find it amazing that the 720p in the GH-1 looks more detailed than the HPX. The 24p is super sharp...but unfortunatley very unpredictable. It wouldn't stop me from using it though.

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        #18
        Originally posted by sdhurley View Post
        Thanks for the thorough work on this, much appreciated.

        on the results... is anyone else seeing some bad color rendition in the clouds/sky on the GH1 footage near the begining of the clips?
        Originally posted by Ian-T View Post
        I thought it was the other way around. The sky looks blue in the GH-1 footage where as the HPX seemed white and blown out a little.

        Then again...in the GH-1 clips when you look at the pickup truck...or anything that is supposed to be white...they have some sort of blueish tint to it.

        Thanks for this test JDS.
        I wouldn't judge any color from this. The HPX was a tad over exposed, the GH1 was not properly white balanced and I push / pulled a lot to try to get them into a similar look. And they seem more washed out than in FCP. Color grading this was what took the most time.

        In terms of latitude the GH1 definitely seems more forgiving though and has more resolution even in 720.
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          #19
          Originally posted by Ian-T View Post
          I also find it amazing that the 720p in the GH-1 looks more detailed than the HPX. The 24p is super sharp...but unfortunatley very unpredictable. It wouldn't stop me from using it though.
          Yeah. Make note of the smeary-ness of the asphalt in the AVCHD modes, and the super sharpness of the asphalt and everything else in MJPEG.

          This is probably happening due to two things
          1) You're starting with a 4K sensor, and no it doesn't do a crop of the sensor - it uses all of it then down rezes. Whether it does some kind of column skipping or something we don't know, but it's not a crop. So in terms of resolution, it's like starting with a Red and then downresing to 1K - make that 1920X180 vs. the 1280X1080 or 1280X720 vs 1280 X1080
          2) the 170 is prefiltered to 1280X1080 (the subjet of much discussionb and debate around here) so starting 4K and going to 1280X720 seems better than starting 2K and going 12080X1080.
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            #20
            Jack, thanks for all your hard work. I'm a bit new at this 1080p 24 stuff, so I'm a bit confused. You mention "This problem is significantly reduced in 60p AVCHD making it suitable for most applications where 1080 24p might fail, and non existent in 720 30p MJPEG an intra frame codec".

            I guess where I'm confused is your reference to 60p. I know that the GH1 doesn't have a 1080 60p option, so are you talking about dropping a 1080 24p clip into an editing project set up as 1080 60p? If that's the case, are you saying that this procedure doesn't require reverse pulldown (which I still can't find in my Edius Pro program)?

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              #21
              with the abundance of FCP tutorials i should have gotten a mac :S

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                #22
                Originally posted by Jack Daniel Stanley View Post
                Yeah the way around it is through method 1. Compressor alone, or 2. Cinema tools and then compressor or 3. Cinema tools and FCP. You get glass smooth 60p to 24p any of those three separate ways. Only dropping right into the timeline with 60p give you stutter.
                Still a little confused by this workflow, probably because I don't have my GH1 yet and the test footage I have is difficult to make out differences because there is not much movement other than pans. I personally don't mind the stutter, and I think it will be unnoticable on most shots, except for ones like you did in your test, where a large object moves completely horizonitally, and we see that frames are being played in a weird pattern (3:2?)

                EDIT: I'm talking about 60p to 24p here.
                "Can't stop the signal."

                http://www.vimeo.com/benbunch
                benbunchfilms.com

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Ken7 View Post
                  Jack, thanks for all your hard work. I'm a bit new at this 1080p 24 stuff, so I'm a bit confused. You mention "This problem is significantly reduced in 60p AVCHD making it suitable for most applications where 1080 24p might fail, and non existent in 720 30p MJPEG an intra frame codec".

                  I guess where I'm confused is your reference to 60p. I know that the GH1 doesn't have a 1080 60p option, so are you talking about dropping a 1080 24p clip into an editing project set up as 1080 60p? If that's the case, are you saying that this procedure doesn't require reverse pulldown (which I still can't find in my Edius Pro program)?
                  You're correct about no 1080 60p.
                  The modes are:
                  1080 24p AVCHD
                  720 60p AVCHD
                  720 30p AVCHD

                  Your goal is a 24p project. Whether that project is 1080 or 720 is up to you. There's an argument to be made for each:

                  1080 24p TIMELINE ARGUMENT:
                  I've shot some 1080 material and I don't want to downrez that and I'm going out to blue ray or film or even down converting to SD I want to start with as much possible resolution. Besides I need to be able to tell my clients, sales agents, distributors that I'm delivering 1080 HD.

                  720 24p TIMELINE ARGUMENT: Why would I want to uprez my 720 footage to 1080 only to downrez it again. That has to create some kind of artifacts with all that digital manipulation. Besides I'm only going out to standard def DVD (blue ray burners are expensive) and 720 is plenty of resolution. I've seen stuff projeced from an SD DVD player in a movie theater and it looked great.

                  Now to the timeline setting question:
                  You want a 24p timeline. So any drag and drop approaches are dragging onto a 24p timeline.

                  60p and 30p are not really devised for reverse telecine but you can put them through reverse telecine and it will delete frames. 60i is.

                  If you drop them on a 24p timeline it does the exact same thing - delets frames to get to 24p. The result i somewhat choppy with 60p and very choppy with 30p.

                  So if you do reverse telecine with 60p or 30p material your kind of applying a process that was not designed to work.

                  The "Conform" then "Retime" method gets you 24p without dropping frames, but by changing the duration of the frames. First you conform, now all our 60p frames have grown longer and only 24 of them occur once a second. Now you have slow motion. So now you retime. You speed things back up and the software reinterprets the frames 24fps to a faster 24fps.

                  Make sense?
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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Ben_B View Post
                    Still a little confused by this workflow, probably because I don't have my GH1 yet and the test footage I have is difficult to make out differences because there is not much movement other than pans. I personally don't mind the stutter, and I think it will be unnoticable on most shots, except for ones like you did in your test, where a large object moves completely horizonitally, and we see that frames are being played in a weird pattern (3:2?)

                    EDIT: I'm talking about 60p to 24p here.
                    You may be right about it not being hat noticeable. To me it is not noticeable in the GH1 Action Short / Test in my signature banner but other's claim it is. And that's where I just threw everthing on a 24 timeline with no conversion.

                    The point here is to know the options and that's why the test was shot the way it was, almost the Yin to the GH1's Action short's Yang. This one was set up as a controlled experiment to really know what was going on. The Action short was about what you could get away with. So again, it's about knowing the options.

                    Using Cinema tools and compressor is pretty perfect. So if you want to have 24p that would look like you shot it with real 24p go that route. If the workflow seems daunting and you never notice a difference, just drop the 60p in your timeline and get on with being creative. But when you come to that tracking shot you want to be oh so smooth, then you will probably want the options of the "conform then retime" methods rather than drag and drop telecine. If you were editing Bourne Identity, drag and drop might be fine. If you have steady cam footage following Danny on his trike in the SHINING, then you would probably want the "conform and retime" over "drag and drop", or the glass smooth effect might be lost.

                    I don't want to make it sound like just dropping 60p footage into a 24p timeline is totally the way to go, but for some it may be fine.
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                      #25
                      What happens to the on-camera sound when you conform and retime?
                      "Can't stop the signal."

                      http://www.vimeo.com/benbunch
                      benbunchfilms.com

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                        #26
                        It stays with it. Though you make a copy of the original that you can swap out the old audio for the new. Not sure why, just that I've seen this step recommended in some other workflows. Maybe there's some voodoo or subtle artifacting that may occur from slowing down your audio and speeding it up again? Dunno. But it stays in sync and with with it.
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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Ian-T View Post
                          I thought it was the other way around. The sky looks blue in the GH-1 footage where as the HPX seemed white and blown out a little.

                          Then again...in the GH-1 clips when you look at the pickup truck...or anything that is supposed to be white...they have some sort of blueish tint to it.

                          Thanks for this test JDS.

                          Yeah I was Pxl-peeping and the GH1 is considerably sharper; it handles the highlight edges like a DSLR instead of a camcorder. The big dense sensor playing the role here. The house in the center frame a few hundred yards away is soft in the hpx; the Gh1 still has detail and has way less edge softness like the HPX.


                          .
                          Last edited by PappasArts; 06-29-2009, 11:26 AM.
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                            #28
                            Need some advice. I don't want to upgrade my older FCP at this moment since im not using it for business curently. I have the latest imovie, however never used it before cause I have FCP. Whenever my GH1 arrives, I would like to shoot in the 1080/24 mode however what can I use that is the best for extraction of the 1080/24 avchd. Then after extraction I need to make high quality 1080/24 M-jpeg files of those clips. Neoscene has been mentioned, I just don't want to assume that is the best option/ best quality.

                            So to summarize my planned process.

                            GH1 1080/24-> imovie capture/Neoscene or? -> Conversion of those files to M-Jpeg at 1080/24..

                            Am I missing any of the needed parts

                            BTW this is a bithchin thread, very informative and enlightening Jack!

                            .
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                              #29
                              Tutorial 1 is up in Post 3.
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                                #30
                                Originally posted by PappasArts View Post
                                Need some advice. I don't want to upgrade my older FCP at this moment since im not using it for business curently. I have the latest imovie, however never used it before cause I have FCP. Whenever my GH1 arrives, I would like to shoot in the 1080/24 mode however what can I use that is the best for extraction of the 1080/24 avchd. Then after extraction I need to make high quality 1080/24 M-jpeg files of those clips. Neoscene has been mentioned, I just don't want to assume that is the best option/ best quality.

                                So to summarize my planned process.

                                GH1 1080/24-> imovie capture/Neoscene or? -> Conversion of those files to M-Jpeg at 1080/24..

                                Am I missing any of the needed parts

                                BTW this is a bithchin thread, very informative and enlightening Jack!

                                .
                                Voltaic or Neoscene are necessary for removing pulldown from 108024p AND properly reconstructing the interlaced chroma back to progresive.

                                Neoscene does one of 2 things.
                                1) remove pulldown and reconstruct chroma from your 108024p footage and convert the MTS files to either ProRes or Cineform.
                                2) convert your 60p AVCHD to Pro Res or Cineform (leaving it at 60p and and native resolution.

                                It doesn't do anything to the MJPEGs

                                The MJPEGS already come in a nice little QT wrapper from the camera. I convert them in compressor to ProRes or Quicktime.

                                So you need Voltaic or Neoscene for the 108024 pulldown and chroma reconstruction (can't remeber where JES deinterlacer rates, I think you can do the same but need other FCP Suite software working with it)

                                EDIT: I see you want to make MJPEG's not convert them. NeoScene won't do that. Only Pro Res or NeoScene QT's.

                                Voltaic will do it.
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