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    If everyone made exactly the same product, price would be the only reason to buy or brand loyalty( no logical reason ). Differentiation makes sense for any manufacturer. Why make the same thing as everyone else. Focus on a few areas that will attract those buyers. Those areas maybe not what you are interested in but I am certain that any manufacturer will have researched the market for each of their products so that the market size makes sense. To gain an audience Panasonic has to be different NOT the same as everyone else. My application is just one area that would work for things you view as deficient and of no importance to me. By the way those deficiencies ( auto focus ) apply to the whole Blackmagic camera range. Can't say Panasonic image stabilization is deficient as it is likely still the best ( confirmation from people I know who have both the GH5 and the Sony A7S|||). As you no doubt see I view my GH5S superior to my GH5 in so many ways. There will be others where the features Panasonic have are also more important than what you view as a necessary standard they do not meet. I am not stuck to Panasonic I was a Sony user for years until the GH5 offered better value for what I wanted. I would change again if a manufacturer offered what I wanted at the right price.

    Comment


      the trouble is there are a few things you can adjust on a camera. wb iris, shutter, focual distance, iso.

      and the hardest and least forgiving is focal distance so having an assist with that is the route to the highest amount of 'keepers' and is kin of essential.

      Yep I just worked on a feature with an arri lf an amorphics and two men, and thousands of pounds of kit dedicated to keeping focual distance correct, honestly im not sure they did it - but we will only know once we are in the edit.

      http://www.sammorganmoore.com View my feature Film

      Comment


        Originally posted by Ron Evans View Post
        If everyone made exactly the same product, price would be the only reason to buy or brand loyalty( no logical reason ). Differentiation makes sense for any manufacturer. Why make the same thing as everyone else. Focus on a few areas that will attract those buyers. Those areas maybe not what you are interested in but I am certain that any manufacturer will have researched the market for each of their products so that the market size makes sense. To gain an audience Panasonic has to be different NOT the same as everyone else. My application is just one area that would work for things you view as deficient and of no importance to me. By the way those deficiencies ( auto focus ) apply to the whole Blackmagic camera range. Can't say Panasonic image stabilization is deficient as it is likely still the best ( confirmation from people I know who have both the GH5 and the Sony A7S|||). As you no doubt see I view my GH5S superior to my GH5 in so many ways. There will be others where the features Panasonic have are also more important than what you view as a necessary standard they do not meet. I am not stuck to Panasonic I was a Sony user for years until the GH5 offered better value for what I wanted. I would change again if a manufacturer offered what I wanted at the right price.
        If they can get more people to think like you, I think they'll be okay and will stay in business.

        Comment


          On the "AF is optional" front, one might as well go ZCam or BMD.

          It'd be interesting to see what BMD conjures up next. It's not difficult to beat the cartel on some specs, it's difficult to beat them on the cutting edge hardware.

          Comment


            Originally posted by DLD View Post
            It's not difficult to beat the cartel on some specs, it's difficult to beat them on the cutting edge hardware.
            "Cutting edge". I like the sound of that. Disappointment is only a state of mind, and doesn't exist outside of it. But expectation cam also be pleasant....

            Comment


              At this point, I think a lot of us are just really annoyed at Panasonic.

              This camera should have been shipping already...

              Comment


                Originally posted by Ron Evans View Post
                Maybe Panasonic has realized they are not going to compete with Canon or Sony in continuous auto focus and are placing attention on different aspects like image stabilization, box cameras, streaming, ethernet multicam control etc where they do have an advantage over the others. Actually at 60P the Panasonic autofocus is not bad. I do not use it but testing at 60P the GH5 and GH5S are not too different to my AX53 camcorder in grabbing focus and locking on. Again I know I am different but always shoot at 60P Can't stand the slow frame rates where I think Panasonic has the issues with autofocus.
                And they have to compete with Apple.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Zim View Post

                  And they have to compete with Apple.
                  Are you suggesting the others do not have to compete ? What is the Apple competition . The iPhone ? All camera manufacturers have that competition. I agree with NorBro that Panasonic are late in either telling us what GH6 is going to be even if they say it will be next year before we get it with first firmware release. I can only think that there is a part they are waiting for to complete the picture. Either processor or sensor I expect so final spec and delivery cannot be set.

                  GH6 is still on my list as I am not in a hurry to upgrade. Not full of enthusiasm to move to full frame or even APS-C with all the new lenses to buy as well. Not sure how many fit my specs anyway. Almost certain they don't fit my budget !!

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by stoneinapond View Post

                    "Cutting edge". I like the sound of that. Disappointment is only a state of mind, and doesn't exist outside of it. But expectation cam also be pleasant....
                    Pretty much all the innovation on the sensor front came from the Japanese, with Samsung contributing some technology on the smartphones. But auto focus, low light performance, high res came on the consumer tier cameras, rather than on the high end pro models. The problem is that some of the features were handed to some models but not to others. And at the same price point too.

                    And Panasonic was at the cutting edge with GH-4, near the edge with GH-5 and now nowhere with GH-6.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by DLD View Post

                      Pretty much all the innovation on the sensor front came from the Japanese, with Samsung contributing some technology on the smartphones. But auto focus, low light performance, high res came on the consumer tier cameras, rather than on the high end pro models. The problem is that some of the features were handed to some models but not to others. And at the same price point too.

                      And Panasonic was at the cutting edge with GH-4, near the edge with GH-5 and now nowhere with GH-6.
                      If your are talking just about autofocus at 24P you are correct but not for a lot of other features that the GH5 is still leading that others. It is still better stabilizer than any of its competition. When the GH5 came out it was the leading edge in a very large number of areas some of which it is still leading even after 4 years. With the GH5S you have DCI 4k that most of the competition still cannot provide and internal in 10bit 4:2:2 as well. Just depends on what one is looking for. At the moment we do not know what the GH6 will bring so I do not think you can say it is nowhere - yet.

                      Comment


                        The GH5 was very much cutting edge. To the point where even FF stills shooters preferred to use a GH5 for video. When the GH5 first camera out the FF video world still wasn't all hat great. APS-C wasn't any better and cinema cameras were still either largely expensive to kit out or really bulky. Plus cinema cameras really don't provide any of the benefits we get from hybrid cameras like IBIS, any kind of AF or the ability to shot stills if needed.

                        The GH5 was a game changer because it was still way ahead of the curve. It was absolutely unheard of at the time to have internal 10bit 4:2:2 4k or even HD video at a decent price point. It was also unheard of to have built in IBIS that actually worked very well for hand held video.

                        The GH5 really at the end of the day only has two weaknesses.
                        1. Lack of Insane clean ISO levels for low light shooting.
                        2. Lack of accurate and trusty continuous autofocus for 24p video.

                        Everything else it does it to this day beats most other cameras on the market. If that isn't cutting edge I'm not sure what one defines as cutting edge anymore.

                        The GH5s was cutting edge as well. First m43 camera that actually didn't suck for #1 when it came to video. Panasonic solved one of their major flaws and produced a very respectable low light video camera with a smaller sensor. It of course had other tradeoffs and #2 still isn't great. Heck Sony just finally started providing 10bit this year a solid seven years after even the GH4 had external 10bit. Sony wouldn't even add 10bit for external. Right now Sony only provided 10bit on their flagship newest A7S body. They finally provide it on another flagship model but for me it was too late. They farted around for too long.

                        I bought a Canon R6 because I did want better AF for family stuff. Ironically family stuff needs a more expensive system. For pro work even with the R6 I'm still going to manual focus because as impressive as it is its not 100% perfect. It can still mess up and even if it does it less a mess up is still embarassing.

                        Thing is I can live without AF for pro work. Have for decades. I can't live with other compromises like 8bit log which should be illegal at this point. I bought the R6 because it has 10bit internal, great log thats easy to use, really good IBIS, DPAF and the only FF to this day that can do 4k 60p with the full sensor readout and not compromise stills as well. It really was the perfect hybrid camera to do just about anything. Only thing it cannot do "yet" is external raw like the R5 eventually received. Until then I am keeping my P4k which I personally feel is the perfect professional video only camera. Video quality for 4k doesn't get much better than the P4k. Yes it sucks for stills and has zero AF or IBIS but those are more hybrid things and shortcut tools. I'm talking a camera that nails video quality first. Focus and stabilization can be solved with gear and effort. Quality cannot.

                        That is why the Panasonic AF doesn't bother me at all for pro work. A lot of pro work is being done with fully manual or cine lenses anyway.

                        Speaking of over heating that is one area where Panasonic is still king. One buys a Panasonic m43 camera they can shoot outdoors in AZ in 120 degree direct sunlight for eight hours straight and never overheat. That right there adds a tremendous value for professionals who want a camera that will never let them down. Panasonic m43 cameras are mostly invincible when it comes to heat. If I ever need to shoot a four hour concert outdoors in the middle of summer I'm going to pick a m43 camera long before a FF camera. In general for outdoor video m43 is just overall a better choice hands down. Easier to focus DOF, longer lens reach without breaking your back and endless shooting without overheating.

                        Comment


                          Well said Thomas. With GH5 and GH5S the things I miss now would be internal 10bit 4:2:2 as I do that now with the Ninja V's I have but would also like to shoot internal as well as a backup. The GH5M2 of course will do this !! Am sure the GH6 will do as well.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Thomas Smet View Post
                            The GH5 was very much cutting edge. To the point where even FF stills shooters preferred to use a GH5 for video. When the GH5 first camera out the FF video world still wasn't all hat great. APS-C wasn't any better and cinema cameras were still either largely expensive to kit out or really bulky. Plus cinema cameras really don't provide any of the benefits we get from hybrid cameras like IBIS, any kind of AF or the ability to shot stills if needed.

                            The GH5 was a game changer because it was still way ahead of the curve. It was absolutely unheard of at the time to have internal 10bit 4:2:2 4k or even HD video at a decent price point. It was also unheard of to have built in IBIS that actually worked very well for hand held video.

                            The GH5 really at the end of the day only has two weaknesses.
                            1. Lack of Insane clean ISO levels for low light shooting.
                            2. Lack of accurate and trusty continuous autofocus for 24p video.

                            Everything else it does it to this day beats most other cameras on the market. If that isn't cutting edge I'm not sure what one defines as cutting edge anymore.

                            The GH5s was cutting edge as well. First m43 camera that actually didn't suck for #1 when it came to video. Panasonic solved one of their major flaws and produced a very respectable low light video camera with a smaller sensor. It of course had other tradeoffs and #2 still isn't great. Heck Sony just finally started providing 10bit this year a solid seven years after even the GH4 had external 10bit. Sony wouldn't even add 10bit for external. Right now Sony only provided 10bit on their flagship newest A7S body. They finally provide it on another flagship model but for me it was too late. They farted around for too long.

                            I bought a Canon R6 because I did want better AF for family stuff. Ironically family stuff needs a more expensive system. For pro work even with the R6 I'm still going to manual focus because as impressive as it is its not 100% perfect. It can still mess up and even if it does it less a mess up is still embarassing.

                            Thing is I can live without AF for pro work. Have for decades. I can't live with other compromises like 8bit log which should be illegal at this point. I bought the R6 because it has 10bit internal, great log thats easy to use, really good IBIS, DPAF and the only FF to this day that can do 4k 60p with the full sensor readout and not compromise stills as well. It really was the perfect hybrid camera to do just about anything. Only thing it cannot do "yet" is external raw like the R5 eventually received. Until then I am keeping my P4k which I personally feel is the perfect professional video only camera. Video quality for 4k doesn't get much better than the P4k. Yes it sucks for stills and has zero AF or IBIS but those are more hybrid things and shortcut tools. I'm talking a camera that nails video quality first. Focus and stabilization can be solved with gear and effort. Quality cannot.

                            That is why the Panasonic AF doesn't bother me at all for pro work. A lot of pro work is being done with fully manual or cine lenses anyway.

                            Speaking of over heating that is one area where Panasonic is still king. One buys a Panasonic m43 camera they can shoot outdoors in AZ in 120 degree direct sunlight for eight hours straight and never overheat. That right there adds a tremendous value for professionals who want a camera that will never let them down. Panasonic m43 cameras are mostly invincible when it comes to heat. If I ever need to shoot a four hour concert outdoors in the middle of summer I'm going to pick a m43 camera long before a FF camera. In general for outdoor video m43 is just overall a better choice hands down. Easier to focus DOF, longer lens reach without breaking your back and endless shooting without overheating.
                            Exactly. How the GH5 could be considered anything but “cutting edge” is a head scratcher. It along with the GH4 defined what cutting edge was at any given time for the past 8 or so years. While Panasonics current AF leaves much to be desired compared to the competition, personally I could care less. The only time I’ve used AF in the last… well forever , was 3 years ago. I had my GH4 on a gimbal @60P. There’s some good utility there for AF. The moves were staged and scripted for the most part, and the GH4 did well enough. I can only imagine the GH5 is leagues better. Same as you, I can absolutely live without AF for pro work. For me, it’s not even a consideration for future purchase requirements. Whatever AF needs I might have in the future will be more than adequately met in current Panasonic offerings. I can absolutely live without AF for pro work as well. I’ve pulled my own focus for thirty years, I prefer manual focus.

                            I too live in the Phoenix area. Summertime heat in the low desert is hard to fathom unless experienced. Cameras shut down even without the overheating issues common in many current hybrid cameras. What a PITA to have to worry about a temperamental camera shutting down in far less demanding circumstances. Fortunately I don’t have to with my GH5 or any other Panasonic camera ( hybrid or otherwise) I have owned or currently own.

                            If it is actually released, I have little doubt the GH6 will be anything but another cutting edge Panasonic offering.

                            Comment


                              Cutting edge really depends on one's perspective and experience.

                              BMCC was providing 2.5K RAW in 2012 before both. BMPC had 4K RAW at the same time as the GH4. [Quality was light years ahead of Panasonic's.]

                              Then the URSA Mini 4K came and had 4K/60p (S35).

                              And obviously RED was doing things before any of them when some of us were still in high school/college.

                              ___

                              GH4/5 are industry icons but their small sensors will always be the asterisk/footnote.

                              Now a small sensor is perfectly fine, but the achievements are less cutting edge because of it. Which is why full-frame specs are still limited because it's more difficult (cutting edge).

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                                Cutting edge really depends on one's perspective and experience.

                                BMCC was providing 2.5K RAW in 2012 before both. BMPC had 4K RAW at the same time as the GH4. [Quality was light years ahead of Panasonic's.]

                                Then the URSA Mini 4K came and had 4K/60p (S35).

                                And obviously RED was doing things before any of them when some of us were still in high school/college.

                                ___

                                GH4/5 are industry icons but their small sensors will always be the asterisk/footnote.

                                Now a small sensor is perfectly fine, but the achievements are less cutting edge because of it. Which is why full-frame specs are still limited because it's more difficult (cutting edge).
                                Nice that you now agree with some of us. How many of these cameras you have mentioned have continuous autofocus and IBIS ?

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