How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

[IronFilm]

Back then, it was impossible to predict the extraordinary appeal that full-frame would have in the market. (Even today I find this slightly bewildering.)

The initial appeal was as you say: to use existing Canon and Nikon lens ranges that had been designed for 135-format film. That was worth a lot to Canon and Nikon (and Sony, ex Konica Minolta, to a lesser extent), but no-one starting a digital camera system from scratch would have thought to use a legacy film format that saddled you with a load of manufacturing and cost problems in exchange for hitting some arbitrary performance point that no-one had any reason to suspect would be special.

If anything, engineers expected to be able to reduce the sensor size while retaining adequate quality, since the image sensor was more efficient than film at capturing photons. Indeed, early Kodak and Olympus Four Thirds brochures talk about this.

But since Canon had the most to gain by retaining a lens range, they made tremendous efforts to get full-frame CMOS sensors off the ground, doing crazy things like aligning multiple exposures at the lithography stage. There was a Canon ‘white paper’ floating about boasting about how expensive full-frame sensors were to make. Good advertising in retrospect!

This era (from the EOS-1Ds to the original 5D for Canon) cemented the impression in the public imagination that full-frame was something special. The cameras didn’t have a one-stop noise advantage over Nikon DX as physics predicted but more than that, because Nikon had worse sensor tech.

Then, when Nikon moved from DX to FX with the D3, they made a simultaneous leap in sensor tech. This again gave an advantage to full-frame cameras that had nothing to do with the sensor size but compounded the apparent benefit.

By now, Canon and Nikon were designing new lenses for full-frame digital, and the format had become entrenched against the odds.

The move to mirrorless would have been another opportunity to start from scratch with an optimised sensor area, but by then the full-frame size (which is no fuller than any other designed-for sensor, of course, but even the jargon works in its favour) already had a market draw that could not be denied.

Conversely, Micro Four Thirds (and APS-C and even Super 35 for cinema) now has an image problem.

And it’s a quirk of history that no-one wants anything fuller than full-frame, although those sensors exist too.

All of this works against Panasonic with the GH range, but as I suggested upthread, it also gives Panasonic a unique opportunity: they can throw tech and firmware features at the GH6 with less worry about cannibalising higher-end cameras, since the high-end cameras retain the trump card of a larger sensor for differentiation. Canon and Sony cannot so easily do that with their mirrorless cameras, since those cameras already have what many people really want – a full-frame sensor – hence the necessary ‘crippling’.

Nikon, meanwhile, has no high-end video camera range to worry about, but they have been late to recognise the value of video. I think they have belatedly understood this and will make a major effort on video in the next generation of Z cameras – potentially giving Canon and Sony a headache.

I wonder how much longer (if they ever will that is) until Nikon releases a cinema body?

Perhaps they're waiting until they really nail a video-centric mirrorless body first. Thus maybe we need to wait until at least the Nikon Z6 mk3 first.

But yes, I agree with your analysis, it is an interesting quirk of history that so called "Full Frame" has cemented its place as #1

[IronFilm]

Remember that 'the 2.8' look on full frame needs 1.4 on MFT

A proper pro zoom would not be 4 which would have the FF F8 look.

Id say 2 or 2.8

It would have to be a proper lens.. or at least as good/bad as the sony 18-110 which is not a fine lens but is usable and affordable.

As soon as one gets onto a motorised fuji 2/3 or canon cn17 you know you are playing with a proper thing for grown ups to go to work with.

Ahalpert is correct in that that feel is what is needed maybe more than speed.

18-110 is an F4 S35 lens

So if you had a MFT equivalent (14-85mm) then it would just need to be f2.8 throughout.

But yes, if Panasonic could pull off a lens release like say a 12-100mm f2.8 lens (a whole stop faster than the Olympus is) but at a price point which isn't any higher than the Sony 28-135mm f4 cinema lens (which still means a price which is double that of the Olympus 12-100mm f4), *and* release a Panasonic EVA2 MFT (with the GH5S sensor in it, or the newer GH6 sensor in it) at the same time then they'd be onto a real hit!! (especially if either the lens has OIS, or the EVA2 has IBIS, or both).

Doubt an EVA2 MFT will happen, I expect/hope it will be an L Mount (and not EF again!!). Unless perhaps Panasonic decides to release two version of the EVA2 at once?? An EVA2 L Mount with a S1H sensor in it, and an EVA2 MFT with the GH6/GH5S sensor in it.

[DLD]

I wonder how much longer (if they ever will that is) until Nikon releases a cinema body? ...

Considering that they had never released a cinema style camera, it's very unlikely they ever will. Nikon is drowning in red ink as it is and is far more likely to pare down its roster rather than expand it.

The brewing battle royal is between Canon and Sony, largely due to the fact that each make own sensors. Nikon and Panasonic buy from Sony and thus have to make certain concessions in return. Canon seems to have snapped out of it.

[OnSet]

Doubt an EVA2 MFT will happen, I expect/hope it will be an L Mount (and not EF again!!). Unless perhaps Panasonic decides to release two version of the EVA2 at once?? An EVA2 L Mount with a S1H sensor in it, and an EVA2 MFT with the GH6/GH5S sensor in it.

Personally I'm happy with the EVA1 sensor size. Possibly because I primarily use the Sigma 18-35 and 50-100 lenses on it. I'd need to go with different glass for a FF sensor. Of course an EVA2 with mounts that could be easily interchanged in the field by a user (like the Sony F3 / F5 / F55) would be amazing. That would let me use my PL lenses...

If you want something closer to MFT then look more seriously at the BGH1 when it ships. It's already MFT and GH5s sensor - though supposedly better DR in vLog. We have one on order to see whether it can become the camera we can keep on a client site and control remotely over the internet during covid restrictions. If we can get that working we'll be ordering several more. Otherwise it'll just become a b-cam to go with my EVA1, as well as the go-to cam for Ronin-S. The fact that the BGH1 has proper external powering, easily accessible battery changing while on a tripod, and a real bnc for timecode are important for me. And the network cable control will hopefully open up a whole range of new possibilities.

[IronFilm]

Personally I'm happy with the EVA1 sensor size. Possibly because I primarily use the Sigma 18-35 and 50-100 lenses on it. I'd need to go with different glass for a FF sensor. Of course an EVA2 with mounts that could be easily interchanged in the field by a user (like the Sony F3 / F5 / F55) would be amazing. That would let me use my PL lenses...

Of course an EVA1 could never have had a Sony FZ mount, but the locking MFT mount would have been the perfect alternative instead (better even!).

[markoconnell]

FWIW- This is from back in October, but I hadn't seen it:

"The past weeks we got info from solid sources saying that Panasonic wants to focus on the vlogger market for their m43 cameras.
While this is definitely true it may sounded like MFT would be “downgraded”. A trusted source assured me this isn’t the case! He added this:
1) The High end MFT market (GH line) is definitely a BIG focus for Panasonic.
2) Unfortunately the low end would definitely be less focus in the long term.
3) The GH6 will NOT be mainly targeted at vloggers. There will be some very good upgrades coming (that’s why it takes so long to create)
I hope this sounds good enough for you "
https://www.43rumors.com/rumor-panas...t-be-priority/

[Peter C.]

That's a really vague and meaningless statement. I don't even know what downgrading a camera for vloggers would mean. So reassuring us that's not going to happen is like huh?

[BobKo]

I get regular sales e-mails from Canon, so I took a look earlier today. The R5 was featured in the e-mail, so I looked at it and the capability is fantastic: 45 megapixel full-frame sensor, 8K video, IBIS, RAW video recording, etc. What was not fantastic was the price: $3,900 for a body only. If the GH6 can deliver some of that in an M43 camera for $2,500, it will have a market.

If you think that 8K is overkill, you have to put yourself in my shoes. If I get an 8K camera, I get to lobby my wife for a more powerful editing computer. :-)

[NorBro]

IMO, the Panasonics aren't necessarily competing with the Canons; they are competing with themselves.

It's already been said by others, but when a system like the S5 is offered for $2000 (even with the peculiar mount) then only the utmost loyalist group would invest in a MFT alternative for the same price.

Does that group exist, absolutely. But times have also drastically changed since the GH5's 2017 announcement and cameras are tougher to sell. People are very picky (as they should be).

[IronFilm]

That's a really vague and meaningless statement. I don't even know what downgrading a camera for vloggers would mean. So reassuring us that's not going to happen is like huh?

Hopefully nothing like the downgraded Panasonic G100 for vloggers, that was a disappointment.

[Samuel Dilworth]

It's already been said by others, but when a system like the S5 is offered for $2000 (even with the peculiar mount) then only the utmost loyalist group would invest in a MFT alternative for the same price.

Does that group exist, absolutely. But times have also drastically changed since the GH5's 2017 announcement and cameras are tougher to sell. People are very picky (as they should be).

Ahalpert suggested I consider the S5 instead of a GH5S in another thread, so I had a look. The camera has merit but I find it easier to recommend to others than buy it for myself. Some problems:

• few, expensive, mostly enormous lenses. Sigma is on-board, though, so that may change
• I’d have to laboriously sell my Micro Four Thirds lenses, which were carefully chosen and bought
• slow readout (rolling shutter artefacts, cropped 4K 60p)
• no OLPF (AA filter)
• weak viewfinder
• kind of expensive (so is the GH5S but it feels a lot less compromised except for the V-Log L nonsense).

Maybe I’m being picky (as I should be).

[ahalpert]

I largely agree, but - I'm not sure that the readout speed or lack of AA filter will cause a problem in real life. Sure, it depends on what you shoot and I'll always prefer a faster readout.

If you're willing to adapt lenses and stay manual focus (which is probably a wise choice with their focus system), you can use literally any lenses. Old Leicas, Nikons, EF mount... yes, you'd have to rebuild your lens collection but there are so many choices of full-frame glass

Also - did you discuss Olympus at all? I know their cameras have some drawbacks. But they recently enabled ProRes RAW out via HDMI to a Ninja V, so codecs are no longer a problem. And if you want IBIS, I believe it is even better than Panasonic. Not sure about low light performance. Probably only on par with gh5

[Samuel Dilworth]

Good points.

I have Olympus stills cameras, although not one that supports Raw video output with the new firmware. Don’t want to have to use an external recorder for 10-bit video, which I think Olympus still requires.

I’m looking for a super-minimalist, super-lightweight set-up to travel with – without a car. Portability is why I got into Micro Four Thirds for stills in the first place.

But I do appreciate that Panasonic will have to do something good to retain market relevance with the GH6. A GH5S with IBIS, 10-bit 4K 60p internal recording, and ProRes RAW external – all for under $2000 – would do it, I think.

[NorBro]

Ahalpert suggested I consider the S5 instead of a GH5S in another thread, so I had a look. The camera has merit but I find it easier to recommend to others than buy it for myself. Some problems:

• few, expensive, mostly enormous lenses. Sigma is on-board, though, so that may change
• I’d have to laboriously sell my Micro Four Thirds lenses, which were carefully chosen and bought
• slow readout (rolling shutter artefacts, cropped 4K 60p)
• no OLPF (AA filter)
• weak viewfinder
• kind of expensive (so is the GH5S but it feels a lot less compromised except for the V-Log L nonsense).

Maybe I’m being picky (as I should be).

Yeah, people can make the same kind of list for the GH5S...that's the whole point about being picky and listing what you like and don't like when you/we actually have choices.

Personally, in real life (on YouTube, lol), I haven't seen anything more visually impressive from the GH5S.

S5 looks so much nicer to me.

[Bassman2003]

It is tough to know how much would transfer between different production lines, but the recent S5 auto focus upgrade is actually pretty good. I watched "Camera Conspiracy's" comparison of the S5 (with new firmware) and the a7SIII and it was 90% there. Very impressed with Panasonic's desire to make their system work. I would say this would be completely usable for normal gimbal work.

Now what did catch my eye is how I preferred the Sony's look over the Panasonic! This is tough to know how much he worked with the camera's image but the S5 had a fair amount of black crush and weak skin tones going on. The Sony had a much brighter gamma along with more life in the skin. Gosh, how times have changed!

But, I bring this up to say that the GH6 just might have "good enough" AF if the S5 is any indication. If Panasonic can throw the kitchen sink in for the feature set, they might get one more ticker-tape parade for the GH series...