How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

[Samuel Dilworth]

In short, I enjoy using the GH5. It lacks clean ISO performance and C-AF performance.

The GH5S at least fixed the first of those problems with a sensor optimised for video use.

I’d guess Panasonic will eventually move to phase-detect autofocus, although I’d prefer they didn’t because I don’t like the artefacts in the image that often arise from the special pixels.

Obviously autofocus and full-frame are the two major sales vectors right now. Sometimes more important features get lost in the hype about those things.

[Samuel Dilworth]

This also gives some time for firmware improvements on both of these cameras as well. (overheating & C-LOG3 on the Canon, maybe shutter angles on the a7SIII?)

Very difficult to fix the overheating. The problem is that Canon insists on using an antiquated fab (that would otherwise be entirely worthless) to make its own processors, which are therefore inefficient. What do they do to alleviate that? Pack in 8K’s worth of pixels before anyone else does. The result will win them sales, but it’s not a sensible camera for video use, certainly for event coverage where people can’t wait around for the camera to catch its breath.

[NorBro]

Very difficult to fix the overheating. The problem is that Canon insists on using an antiquated fab (that would otherwise be entirely worthless) to make its own processors, which are therefore inefficient. What do they do to alleviate that? Pack in 8K’s worth of pixels before anyone else does. The result will win them sales, but it’s not a sensible camera for video use, certainly for event coverage where people can’t wait around for the camera to catch its breath.

There's no doubt overheating is an issue in electronics, but the R5 can record much longer than what it's capable of in its default state from the factory.

[Samuel Dilworth]

The 41 MPX Sony MFT sensor has been out for over a year. So, those are positive factors.

If that’s the sensor I think it is, it’s entirely useless for a video camera because the readout rate is far too slow.

PS. For many, Sony's absence of the internal 10-bit is what stops them from buying either the APS-C or a lower priced FF for video work.

Sony’s 8-bit would be okay if you could turn off the massive noise-reduction. It’s the glossy smooth gradients in combination with 8-bit that create banding problems. The natural noise of the pixels would otherwise be effective dithering even at 8-bit depth. Of course Sony carefully engineered this situation to be just so.

The high end is trending to 8K, which pretty much requires a full frame.

Not so. It’s trivial to put as many pixels as you like on a Four Thirds sensor. Look to smartphones if you doubt that. 8K will arrive to Micro Four Thirds if the format persists. For the time being, it’s difficult to read out all of those pixels quickly enough and downscale them to a smaller pixel count when that is needed … without creating heat and battery-life problems as in the R5.

[Samuel Dilworth]

I never felt there was a compelling need or reason for M43 especially for video. Both APS-c and Super 35 were available and established alternatives to FF, but for some reason Panasonic had to be different. They had a good run but now they're going to have to pay the price.

A Four Thirds sensor is at least a couple of hundred dollars cheaper than a full-frame one. That becomes compelling when the total price of the camera is low. At $2500, this benefit is worth less (but not worthless).

Therefore, I think Panasonic needs to ease down the price of the GH-series cameras. I suspect that will start happening already with the GH6, which might be less innovative than previous cameras were, releative to the rest of the market. But cheaper. Fine by me.

The other major benefit of Micro Four Thirds is the wide range of smaller and cheaper lenses available. There remains a market for cheaper cameras as long as they’re not dumbed down for people who would prefer to point and shoot. That worked in the past. Nowadays, people who still buy standalone cameras want to be involved in the process. So cheap cameras today must still be enthusiast-focused, just less full-featured, bleeding-edge in tech, and solidly built than high-end cameras.

The mistake is to assume there’s no market for cheap cameras just because the old approach of aiming cheap cameras at non-photographers no longer works.

[Bassman2003]

Nice discussion going on. I have an Oly 12-40 f2.8 Pro for a general zoom on the GH5 and it is quite nice. I think I paid $630 for it. For a video only system, M4/3rds is a lot cheaper to fill out a lens lineup. FF DOF gets lost a bit for video use imho. f4 is often is shallow enough on FF, which is not too hard to get with primes on the GH5. So I feel the M4/3rds sensor still has a lot of usefulness. GH5s + IBIS + AF + DR + frame rates is a winner. Lets see what Panasonic can come up with.

[markoconnell]

I never felt there was a compelling need or reason for M43 especially for video.

It just depends on the job you're trying to do. For me it's reach reach reach, combined with weather sealing and small size as I'm doing a lot of wildlife. I'm spending most of my time at 1000 mm. My interest in this is quite selfish. The GH5 and 5S have worked well for me and I'd like to see them improved upon. It's not about cheap, I moved to the GH5 from an FS7, it's about what will best do the job. I would gladly pay the price of an S1H for a good GH6, that said, I realize that my particular needs are shared by very few.

[Peter C.]

It just depends on the job you're trying to do. For me it's reach reach reach, combined with weather sealing and small size as I'm doing a lot of wildlife. I'm spending most of my time at 1000 mm. My interest in this is quite selfish. The GH5 and 5S have worked well for me and I'd like to see them improved upon. It's not about cheap, I moved to the GH5 from an FS7, it's about what will best do the job. I would gladly pay the price of an S1H for a good GH6, that said, I realize that my particular needs are shared by very few.

I'm actually talking about an industry/marketing/engineering standpoint. MFT is a relatively new format and at the time when FF sensors were expensive, sony, canon and nikon offered inexpensive lenses and cameras based around APS-c. Those companies had robust lens families with mounts that had been used for decades. Panasonic which didn't have that advantage could have used their lens mount but chose not to. They put all their effort into a small sensor with no room to grow. Then they tried entering the FF market too late with mounting system that no one uses and offering lenses that are even more expensive than Canon or Sony. They will not be able to sell enough FF cameras and the MFT will slowly dwindle. They will be in Olympus position in a couple of years and will need to drop out of this market.

MFT works for you and fits what you do and that's great. Unfortunately for Panasonic their future in this market isn't promising.

[markoconnell]

I'm actually talking about an industry/marketing/engineering standpoint. MFT is a relatively new format and ...

Ah, got it.

[ahalpert]

Nice discussion going on. I have an Oly 12-40 f2.8 Pro for a general zoom on the GH5 and it is quite nice. I think I paid $630 for it. For a video only system, M4/3rds is a lot cheaper to fill out a lens lineup. FF DOF gets lost a bit for video use imho. f4 is often is shallow enough on FF, which is not too hard to get with primes on the GH5. So I feel the M4/3rds sensor still has a lot of usefulness. GH5s + IBIS + AF + DR + frame rates is a winner. Lets see what Panasonic can come up with.

I agree with this post. Gh line has really lagged full-frame for DR but I don't think it's technically impossible to achieve parity

And personally I have needs for extreme low light and shallow DOF which sort of settles the format question for me

[Bassman2003]

I just posted on DPReview in the M4/3rds forum - What if Panasonic could pull off a global shutter in the GH6? M4/3rds has a sensor readout advantage over FF. Would it be possible and would it make a difference to people? The camera release would benefit from having a standout feature and Panasonic is known for being a company strong in engineering. Just food for discussion.

[ahalpert]

I have no idea if naturally having a faster readout means it's easier to go global. Probably... but it may be a qualitative difference and not a quantitative one.

Also, basically every global shutter implementation has come with a DR penalty, although supposedly komodo comes close to the DR it had in rolling shutter mode. So, if the GH is already lagging in DR, it's an uphill climb to achieve DR parity and go global.

Plus, I personally dont mind RS as long as it's fast. The A7SIII is basically fast enough for me. The biggest issue is strobe lights but I dont think that it's that ugly or distracting to have a partial flash across the frame. It still happens in only one frame. Others may disagree.

So, I think the camera you describe would be awesome, but I'm skeptical. especially since it's easy to say that if X camera company just implemented this list of amazing features and sold it at an unbeatable price, they would be #1 in the segment overnight. Of course, it's true. But it never happens like that. The new technologies are telegraphed well in advance and there are usually gotchas, like with the R5 overheating.

I think the R1 is going to be an amazing camera. Basically an R5 that works but possibly even better IQ. But it's going to cost like $6500 and still lack internal ND or audio inputs or all the functional aspects of the FX6. But the footage will make us drool with envy

[Bassman2003]

Good points. And I am not trying to be starry eyed about it either. It is a long shot. My impression was that a global shutter would do a lot for cadence or feel of the footage.

Since Norbro accused me of never buying a camera I realized I was kind of stalling, for the GH6 to have a chance and to give room for R5 improvement. I just watched the "Sky on Fire" FX6 short and thought it was nice but it looked liked video. Video that a GH5 other mirrorless cameras could have made in many respects outside of low light situations. The tide has lifted a lot of boats lately.

[NorBro]

haha...never buying a NEW camera...you'll find one for sure.

[NorBro]

The way I see it is the main thing to be excited about in any of these new cameras is the bundle of features to get your job done with ease and joy.

>>> You need AF, you get AF.
>>> You need IBIS, you get IBIS.

Preferably you get as much as you need in one body.

But the IQ improvements...so darn subpar, IMO.

The better cameras from 4-5 years ago really look not much worse. I don't know what's happening.