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Canon 1DX II First Impressions and CLog emulation

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    #16
    Originally posted by Kinok View Post
    Canon has intentionally hobbled the 1DX II's 4K video to protect its Cinema EOS cameras. But only three possibilities in this price range can explain why Canon has deliberately withheld C-Log and Super 35mm mode from the 1DX II:

    1) Canon plans on releasing a C100 III/C200

    2) Canon plans on keeping the 1DC in circulation indefinitely, or, until it replaces it eventually with a 1DC II sometime in the future

    3) Canon plans on utilizing the 1DX II platform as a basis for an immediate 1DC II replacement released in about a year like last time

    The problem with the C100 II is that it just came out year ago, and, even though it lacks 4K recording, it would be too early to replace that model, especially for Canon. They could always release a "C200" for a price between the C100 II and C300 II and featuring 4K Super 35mm with a lower quality codec than the C300 II, but we haven't heard anything about that at all. It's just wild speculation at this point.

    With a conservative Japanese electronics conglomerate such as Canon, I always assume the incremental path when trying to predict products. Despite what some Canon reps have been saying, a 1DC II utilizing the 1DX II platform is low-hanging fruit for Canon once they have sold enough 1DX IIs. It's an easy way to extend and expand a product cycle, which is a primary concern for any manufacturer considering the costs of R&D for new products. We know from what is already offered and withheld on the 1DX II that a 1DC II is pretty much an inevitability given the powerful processing and heat management implemented into the new 1D platform. It's pretty much telegraphed.
    If the 1dx2 have c-log, 4K external recording, and dual Cfast slot at the current price, it will not only kill the C100II, but also the FS5 and FS7.
    Currently they are not making the 1Dx2 fast enough, there is a queue of at least 2-3 month at CPS and stock cannot be seen at any store here, they are mainly the photography user. Once they have clear the backorder then they will even think about telling u have a 1DC2 in their plan. IF u buy a 1DX2 now, you may lost about US$500-800 by the time u resale them in 1 year.

    Very likely they do not give us a 4K HDMI port on the 1DX2, I guess is very much an way to stop people like ML to develop a crack for 4K raw. Similarly the dual CFast slot.

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      #17
      Originally posted by cookinghusband View Post
      If the 1dx2 have c-log, 4K external recording, and dual Cfast slot at the current price, it will not only kill the C100II, but also the FS5 and FS7.
      Currently they are not making the 1Dx2 fast enough, there is a queue of at least 2-3 month at CPS and stock cannot be seen at any store here, they are mainly the photography user. Once they have clear the backorder then they will even think about telling u have a 1DC2 in their plan. IF u buy a 1DX2 now, you may lost about US$500-800 by the time u resale them in 1 year.

      Very likely they do not give us a 4K HDMI port on the 1DX2, I guess is very much an way to stop people like ML to develop a crack for 4K raw. Similarly the dual CFast slot.
      First and foremost, the 1DX II is competing with the Nikon D5 ($6500), which means that they had to keep the price low enough for the photographers. As a consequence, they are not able to charge 1DC prices for the 1DX II. This ultimately meant leaving out features like C-Log and Super 35mm mode, which are exclusive to the Cinema EOS line.

      Now we have a 1DX II that looks great on paper for video but is really inferior to the 1DC in dynamic range, roll-off, and color space for grading. The only thing that has been improved in terms of the basic image quality is rolling shutter, which Cinema5d tested at 14ms! The 1DC is listed at 25ms for comparison.

      Because of its newer features (DPAF, 4K60p), the 1DX II is great video camera, but lacks the filmic look associated with the 1DC. Canon knows exactly what it is doing by withholding C-Log: paving the way for the 1DC II. We may have to wait a little longer this time than last time, but surely it is coming. Canon has already lost enough market share. A 5D IV for $3000 and a 1DC II for $7000 will really help them retain VDSLR customers at those price points and with the appropriate features. They cannot keep on selling the 1DC forever. It has to be replaced by a newer model or discontinued entirely so that its price point can be occupied by a dedicated video camera (C200/C100 III) in the Cinema EOS line.
      Last edited by Kinok; 06-14-2016, 08:43 AM.

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        #18
        Thanks for the review Johnnie. It's a great review and I love the fact that you provide a short film to go with it, so that we can see how the camera performs in the field. I do have a few questions for you guys. It looks like you achieved the exact same DR on the 1DX II as the 1DC, according to the Xyla that you posted on your website:

        dynamic-range-1dxii.jpg


        However, I do wonder if this is telling us the whole story. Since you had to overexpose the 1DC by 2 stops (f5.6 vs f11), did this possibly compromise the 1DC's better highlight roll-off vs. the 1DX II? You have also utilized Technicolor Cinestyle on the 1DX II: how much of an improvement was there in DR performance using this method? Perhaps that is why some of the standard 1DX II footage I have seen looks like it has no more than 9 stops of DR, which is what you get with the 1DC in Neutral.

        I will say that with the perfect picture profile, cinestyle, and grading the 1DX II can produce beautiful, vivid, and crisp imagery. In some ways, it is cleaner than the 1DC when it comes to noise since it is more likely to crush the blacks (whereas C-Log retains more shadow detail, but may introduce a muddy effect in those blacks):



        The highlights are slightly blown in the above clip, but the image is stunning in its own right. The 1DX II really excels under artificial lighting and nighttime shoots where DR is not as big of an issue as daylight or direct sunlight. Unfortunately, without C-Log, I don't ever see the 1DX II producing imagery that is as "creamy" as the 1DC, with this kind of highlight roll-off:



        If anyone has produced or seen footage that demonstrates otherwise, I would love to be proven wrong on my assessment of the 1DX II's limitations. It's such a perfect camera in every other way.
        Last edited by Kinok; 06-14-2016, 09:47 AM.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Kinok View Post
          First and foremost, the 1DX II is competing with the Nikon D5 ($6500), which means that they had to keep the price low enough for the photographers. As a consequence, they are not able to charge 1DC prices for the 1DX II. This ultimately meant leaving out features like C-Log and Super 35mm mode, which are exclusive to the Cinema EOS line.

          Now we have a 1DX II that looks great on paper for video but is really inferior to the 1DC in dynamic range, roll-off, and color space for grading. The only thing that has been improved in terms of the basic image quality is rolling shutter, which Cinema5d tested at 14ms! The 1DC is listed at 25ms for comparison.

          Because of its newer features (DPAF, 4K60p), the 1DX II is great video camera, but lacks the filmic look associated with the 1DC. Canon knows exactly what it is doing by withholding C-Log: paving the way for the 1DC II. We may have to wait a little longer this time than last time, but surely it is coming. Canon has already lost enough market share. A 5D IV for $3000 and a 1DC II for $7000 will really help them retain VDSLR customers at those price points and with the appropriate features. They cannot keep on selling the 1DC forever. It has to be replaced by a newer model or discontinued entirely so that its price point can be occupied by a dedicated video camera (C200/C100 III) in the Cinema EOS line.

          I kinda disagree. I don't think Canon is going to release a 1DCII. If they did..it wouldn't be $7K either...it would be more like the 1DC was originally....$14K. Its come down in price a lot. I think the 1DC was a sloppy market test. It actually did not do that great.

          Don't get me wrong...if you are right...I would flip my s$%t and immediately grab one....I just don't think its gonna happen....ever....not with Canon. Everything they have done says that are really dividing their markets.

          If they released a 1DCII at that price point with those specs...they probably would kill their C300II line. Why would they do that? Just doesn't sound like Canon.....we can all hope though.

          So I hope I am the one wrong here.

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            #20
            I would give the 1DC II a 50% chance for release sometime in the next two years. The 1DC has really been hurt by the 1DX II release: who would actually buy a 1DC now for $8K? I understand people are buying 1DC cameras used from stores and owners, but that hurts Canon's 1DC sales.

            So unless Canon wants to abandon the 1DC line altogether (which is entirely possible as you suggest) or reduce the price even more, they are going to have to replace it with a newer version that adds DPAF and 4K60p.

            Also, the price will definitely not be above $8K, unless we are talking about increasing the recorded bit depth to 10. There are two problems with that: 1) It would be very difficult to implement in a weather-sealed body as it would require a fan; 2) It would undermine everything else in the Cinema EOS line, including the C300 II

            The 1DC was an experimental 4K DSLR and was priced accordingly as an exotic product or the first of its kind. By contrast, the 1DX II demonstrates that Canon is able to deliver 1DC technology at half the original retail price.

            If there is a 1DC II, it will be priced $1000-2000 above the 1DX II and simply add C-Log and Super 35mm mode while removing the recording time limit. It will still shoot in 8 bit 4:2:2 MJPEG and everything else will be the same as the 1DX II. As such, it will be a modest but necessary improvement and it will prolong the 1DX II platform's product cycle for another few years until the 1DX III comes to market just before the 2020 Japan Olympics.
            Last edited by Kinok; 06-14-2016, 02:01 PM.

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              #21
              Just shot a bunch with the 1DX Mark II today and I am pretty impressed as far as quality goes. Put a short clip together as this is all straight out of camera on the neutral color profile for reference. Click HD to watch in 4K

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                #22
                There is almost a 50/50 split in the love/hate of the 1dx II. I am trying to sort through it was I was considering a gh4 to a7s II upgrade but thinking the canon color in 4K may be best.



                This video shows some amazing images and looks far and above most footage I have seen. If this is easily achievable on the 1dx II as this gentleman did then it would be a no brainer. The only fear is noise and ISO performance compared to a7s II and 1dc for someone like myself who uses available light.

                Any thoughts?

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                  #23
                  You will be able to achieve easy colors like that right out of the box; with or without tweaking any of the pictures styles.

                  Don't expect A7SI/II ISO performance, but definitely pretty clean up to 12800 (IMO).

                  I owned the camera for a few days, but decided to return it. It's an amazing machine but it wasn't worth $6K to me.

                  These days, the quality is so good out of so many of these cameras that a lot of it comes down to personal preference and certain features one may be interested in. The 1DX Mark II will be a great option for many.

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                    #24
                    I agree the wedding video images are fantastic. Way to go Canon. Lets hope the 5DMKIV can create images that are equal and not hobbled. I know 4k60p will probably not happen but the image quality can be there.

                    1-series cameras are really only for people who need them. They are large and heavy but have the horsepower for certain situations. If my photography warranted a 1-series camera I would be very pleased to make this my A cam SDOF video camera. This fall could be very interesting with the GH5, 5DMKIV and whatever Sony is cooking up. I would definitely hold off on any still camera purchases until after Photokina.

                    P.S. The only thing that is against this camera or the 5D for me is the lack of a viewfinder for video. I use a loupe with my 5D but this takes away from a lot of handheld type of shots. This is an area where mirrorless cameras are just better for video use.
                    Last edited by Bassman2003; 06-19-2016, 10:21 AM.

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                      #25
                      Washed out. Seen better from a Canon XLH1.

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                        #26
                        Dxomark numbers for the 1DX are out. It's information about RAW stills, but it's still interesting because it shows an improvement over previous Canon sensors. It's still slightly worse than the competition at ISO 100 and 200 in most measures (noise, DR, etc), but by ISO 400 it's up there with the best.
                        Comparison with D810 and a7RII
                        Comparison with 1DX and 5D3, that shows that the big improvement is in DR

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                          #27
                          Some more sample footage uploaded in 4K- all the drone footage was done with phantom and everything else was filmed handheld really fast with not much input. Still performed great.

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                            #28
                            Has anyone sprung for the EOSHD C-Log or James Miller Deluts C-Log Picture profile packages for their 1DX Mark II's? Would love to see some footage in motion jpeg.

                            Very close to considering putting my A7sII and 5D3 up for sale to move to the 1DX2, just need to be reasonably convinced before I opt to deal with those mjpeg file sizes.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by NMSK View Post
                              Has anyone sprung for the EOSHD C-Log or James Miller Deluts C-Log Picture profile packages for their 1DX Mark II's? Would love to see some footage in motion jpeg.

                              Very close to considering putting my A7sII and 5D3 up for sale to move to the 1DX2, just need to be reasonably convinced before I opt to deal with those mjpeg file sizes.
                              Mr Bloom did a test already , I bought it buy no time to try yet.

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