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Best way to shot audio with Canon 5D mark III to avoid syncing...?

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    Best way to shot audio with Canon 5D mark III to avoid syncing...?

    Hello
    Thanks in advanced


    if i plug the zoom h4n directly into the camera using a cable like this:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UTQUBA?ie=UTF8&tag=http://wwwsammaller... (or any other cable like this one)
    Would i be able to avoid syncing?
    the audio recorded into the camera would be as good as the one recorded into the zoom h4n...?


    I dont want to use it as a reference for syncing later.. i want to use it as final audio


    thank you!
    Leon.

    #2
    Don't know how they work as a pre-amp compared to something like JuicedLink, but I'm guessing not great.

    Syncing really isn't hard, especially with all the crutches people use now (plural eyes, dual eyes, whatever they call that stuff we don't bother using).
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      #3
      Originally posted by gonzo_entertainment View Post
      Syncing really isn't hard
      Not hard until you have a million shots and something goes wrong. These audio matching programs are good, but not 100% foolproof.
      I suggest recording with a good mixer directly to your camera if you don't have a lot of syncing experience. If you feel the quality is not up to your standards coming from the camera card, then record both directly to the camera and also to an external recorder so you have 2 options in post. Then if the sht hits the fan your ass is covered.
      Last edited by ROCKMORE; 06-06-2012, 05:06 PM.
      Michael Rockmore

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        #4
        Great advice Rockmore! I just can't have external audio go into the cam when on a stabilizer as the weight of the rig goes through the roof.

        I had one shoot where I forgot to turn on the camera's audio recording. What a nightmare. I had to render a few seconds of every clip until I knew the external recorder audio was synched. What a pain in the arse that was. What you see in the NLE is never exactly frame for frame perfect vs. the rendered file.

        When you have both the camera and the external audio it's super easy to simply line up the audio peaks. Never even knew there was a need for software to do such a thing. It's that easy. What am I missing here?

        Cheers,
        Pete

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          #5
          For in-camera audio, this looks like it might be the best tool on the market right now:
          http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=REG&A=details
          http://www.beachtek.com/dxa-slrpro/

          Would be interesting to know if it's as quiet as a JuicedLink.

          I have an H4N and would recommend a DR-100mkII over the H4N for audio quality. I use the DR-100mkII digital input along with a Sound Devices USBPre2's digital out for SD702 quality at about 1/2 the price. This dual device setup is OK for studio work, but for field work a 702 would be better (less parts / simpler setup / more reliable). A USB battery is used to power the USBPre2 (can also work as a high quality computer audio interface).

          See also:

          http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

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            #6
            Look at the new Fostex RC-302, should be better than the other two and has the possibility of single trigger audio and video.

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              #7
              Originally posted by ROCKMORE View Post
              Not hard until you have a million shots and something goes wrong. These audio matching programs are good, but not 100% foolproof.
              I suggest recording with a good mixer directly to your camera if you don't have a lot of syncing experience. If you feel the quality is not up to your standards coming from the camera card, then record both directly to the camera and also to an external recorder so you have 2 options in post. Then if the sht hits the fan your ass is covered.
              Why would I sync a million shots. I only sync the shots that make it into the edit. If the audio files are organized properly so it's fairly easy to find which audio file goes with each clip it's about 15 seconds per clip if you have a slate and about 45 seconds per if you don't. The only time syncing becomes a pain in the ass is when the audio is poorly organized and you're searching for files.

              Run and Doc work where you can't ever OK, single system makes some sense there, but really the only time it does.
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                #8
                Hello
                thanks for the answers
                Just wanted to know if the audio recorded into the camera would be as good as the one recorded into the zoom h4n when they are plugged...
                But i guess I'll have it as a back up when the one from the camera is not as clear...

                Syncing is easy... but i want to see if it can be avoid it sometimes. Pluraleyes its great but it duplicates the files in the timeline in the hard drive.. so it creates a lot of space... which is a pain.

                Thanks!

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by gonzo_entertainment View Post
                  Why would I sync a million shots. I only sync the shots that make it into the edit. If the audio files are organized properly so it's fairly easy to find which audio file goes with each clip it's about 15 seconds per clip if you have a slate and about 45 seconds per if you don't. The only time syncing becomes a pain in the ass is when the audio is poorly organized and you're searching for files.

                  Run and Doc work where you can't ever OK, single system makes some sense there, but really the only time it does.
                  I shoot and edit every day 365 days a year both video clips and still shots. On top of that I design and render in 3dmax. The files add up to the thousands in hours. Every file must be named, logged, copied and put in a folder. I'm very well organized in all my productions which is why it adds up to so many man hours.
                  Additional mandatory post sync work takes additional time and if it requires syncing hundreds of shots in one edit I may have to add 10 hours to my 24 hour day which doesn't exist.
                  Time is money and with the digital revolution I am already chained to my edit station when I would rather be shooting.
                  If it's necessary and the money is there go for all the post sync audio you want. In my many years of production I can't see much difference between laying the audio on the digital camera card synced to the picture and getting the job done, as apposed to recording it on another digital device when the origin of the audio comes from the same mic and mixer.

                  I know there "IS" a difference, but at "WHAT" cost.

                  If you have an example of the difference between the same audio signal recorded to the camera card and to another audio recorder it would be great share with us.

                  Post sync in some cases when clients are paying for it 100% yes. In other cases 100% no.

                  I know I sound harsh and I mean to. Cut yourself a break on unnecessary and redundant tasks and put the extra effort where it is needed.

                  There is an old popular saying, "Fix it in post". I never believed in it.
                  Last edited by ROCKMORE; 06-08-2012, 06:29 AM.
                  Michael Rockmore

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                    #10
                    "If you have an example of the difference between the same audio signal recorded to the camera card and to another audio recorder it would be great share with us."

                    You REALLY need me to give you an example of the difference in the noise floor between recording to camera and to a $1500 or $2000 field recorder (or to a full on audio cart with pre-amps, EQs, etc...)?

                    I am talking about (and we may not be talking about the same thing) recording for narrative filmmaking, where the primary job of audio on set is to record completely clean dialogue with as little noise, environment, etc... as possible. Everything else isn't "fixed" in post, it's mostly created in post.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by gonzo_entertainment View Post


                      I am talking about (and we may not be talking about the same thing) recording for narrative filmmaking, where the primary job of audio on set is to record completely clean dialogue with as little noise, environment, etc... as possible. Everything else isn't "fixed" in post, it's mostly created in post.
                      This is a 100% yes case where I would record on the best audio set up possible including a post sync scenario.
                      Narrative scripted film making requires tremendous commitment from many people involved, and by it's nature is organized for separate audio files, with slates at the head of every take. What's more is you will have a dedicated audio recordists to handle logging your audio files on set.
                      I would also recommend always recording the same audio signal to the camera card. It will streamline your offline edit greatly and provide a fail safe option.
                      Last edited by ROCKMORE; 06-08-2012, 04:48 PM.
                      Michael Rockmore

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by jcs View Post
                        For in-camera audio, this looks like it might be the best tool on the market right now:
                        http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=REG&A=details
                        http://www.beachtek.com/dxa-slrpro/

                        Would be interesting to know if it's as quiet as a JuicedLink.

                        I have an H4N and would recommend a DR-100mkII over the H4N for audio quality. I use the DR-100mkII digital input along with a Sound Devices USBPre2's digital out for SD702 quality at about 1/2 the price. This dual device setup is OK for studio work, but for field work a 702 would be better (less parts / simpler setup / more reliable). A USB battery is used to power the USBPre2 (can also work as a high quality computer audio interface).

                        See also:

                        http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
                        I did a lot of research between the beachtek and the Jucedlink and I think the Jucelink contains better components which may provide a quieter signal. I don't have hands on experience, but in the price range I would buy a jucedlink used on ebay to try.
                        Michael Rockmore

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                          #13
                          Leok17 -
                          Sounds like you might already have the Zoom H4N and that is your only option.

                          If so, it has been my experience that audio recorded by the H4n is nearly identical to audio properly recorded by the 5d MK III after passing through the H4n. (Properly recorded = levels set correctly.) I recently had a sound designer A/B those two options for me through through $24K Genelec monitors...we couldn't tell the difference.

                          Obviously, the quality isn't as good as other options discussed here, but very acceptable (a subjective term, I know), especially with proper eq-ing and mixing.

                          I also record on the H4n in addition to the camera as a backup.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by ROCKMORE View Post
                            I would also recommend always recording the same audio signal to the camera card. It will streamline your offline edit greatly and provide a fail safe option.
                            Absolutely. One of these days I'm going to pop on one of those Rode Videomics to slightly upgrade that scratch track going to the camera. I find I usually don't even use it for reference though. I delete the audio as soon as I drop the file on the timeline, scrub to the slate click, then line that up with the distinctive wave form of the slate click on the off camera audio file, boom, 10 seconds and you're done. HOWEVER, it is nice to have for safety and it provides some reference for Foley on shots done MOS.
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