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Cinema EOS Announcement on 19th Jan

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    #31
    "R5c" filename on a canon promo thumbnail confirms that it is the r5c launching on Jan 19

    Canonrumors says it will have timecode in/out.. that is going to be very useful for integrating it into interviews and multicamera generally
    www.VideoAbe.com

    "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -Harvey

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      #32
      If the TC I/O is from that old list they have up where they are saying C-Log2 is still being discussed, it's still rumored...

      But as a Cinema EOS camera, I wouldn't doubt it.

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        #33
        Originally posted by ahalpert View Post
        "R5c" filename on a canon promo thumbnail confirms that it is the r5c launching on Jan 19

        Canonrumors says it will have timecode in/out.. that is going to be very useful for integrating it into interviews and multicamera generally
        the R5c filename went through several Facebook groups but someone mentioned that the R5c came from one of the rumor sites not from Canon itself. I don't care how they name it as long it has full size HDMI port and a better / active cooling.
        --
        I'm just a hobbyist with a business tax number and a specialist for everything.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Samuel Dilworth View Post
          Depends what you’re after, surely. I’ve never fully understood the success of the R5. The readout of the sensor is not fast enough for even full-quality 60p, never mind 120p that the α7S III / FX3 / FX6 can do with a negligible crop. With the R5 you’re line-skipping or heavily cropping for 60p and 120p.

          That’s pretty miserable for a camera of its price, if you ask me, but I’m only a dilettante with a particular disgust for rolling-shutter artefacts and no great fetish for 8K. I guess it’s really the 8K headline spec that sold this camera.

          Presumably this new fan-cooled R5 will have the same limitations but at least not overheat. Maybe it’ll have the luxury of a full-size HDMI port, you know, like an entry-level Panasonic G9 or Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K.
          The rolling shutter time of the R5 when recording 8K RAW or 4K HQ is 15.5 ms (https://www.cined.com/canon-eos-r5-l...in-raw-or-not/). Which suggests that the sensor readout speed is actually fast enough to do 8K 60p (16.67 ms/frame). So it's not entirely clear why the camera uses a faster sensor readout mode involving pixel binning/line skipping for 60 fps recording, but my guess is that this is due to processor or thermal limitations. The rolling shutter performance in the 4K non-HQ mode (which doesn't overheat) up to 30 fps is 9.6ms, the same as when recording 4K 60fps, suggesting that a similar sensor readout mode may be used for both.

          Obviously, this is still too slow of a sensor readout for 120 fps without cropping or line skipping, but the R5 actually has a fairly fast readout given that it is a high megapixel sensor with a traditional (non-stacked) design. But Canon is still a bit behind Sony in terms of sensor tech, as Sony has both high-megapixel stacked sensors (in the a1) and even faster lower-megapixel sensors (in the a7s3, etc.).

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            #35
            Originally posted by NorBro View Post
            Word on the street for a while has been the C70-like style is Canon's new direction for cameras moving forward, and the old C300/500 body is done.

            Obviously, IDK for sure - but I personally prefer a C70 style 1000x more.

            They are building the LCD and handle into the body which is what hundreds have always asked for. Others can add stuff.

            C70_1.jpg

            C70_2.jpg
            agreed, this is the style most thought the Dslr revolution was going to spawn by 2012…. it took a while but they got there. C70 is my current favorite ergo wise.

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              #36
              also, knowing Canon, the R5C is going to be $8K+, pricing it out of its own use bracket.

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                #37
                Originally posted by James0b57 View Post

                agreed, this is the style most thought the Dslr revolution was going to spawn by 2012…. it took a while but they got there. C70 is my current favorite ergo wise.
                Really? I would say that ergonomics and usability are the big downsides of the C70 - HDMI cable sticking out towards operator (when shooting handheld), mediocre LCD with a flimsy, floppy mount, lack of mounting points, odd choice of non-programmable buttons in prime positions, non-rotating side grip along with a general feeling of it not being balanced (though I suppose this depends on battery size and lens choice).

                My everyday camera is the FX6 and to me they are like night and day ergonomics-wise. The only thing I prefer about the C70 is that you can send the camera's focus mag and peaking to an HDMI connected monitor / EVF.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Andy9 View Post

                  Really? I would say that ergonomics and usability are the big downsides of the C70 - HDMI cable sticking out towards operator (when shooting handheld), mediocre LCD with a flimsy, floppy mount, lack of mounting points, odd choice of non-programmable buttons in prime positions, non-rotating side grip along with a general feeling of it not being balanced (though I suppose this depends on battery size and lens choice).

                  My everyday camera is the FX6 and to me they are like night and day ergonomics-wise. The only thing I prefer about the C70 is that you can send the camera's focus mag and peaking to an HDMI connected monitor / EVF.
                  Yeah, I'm a bit shocked by James and Norbro's positive comments about the c70 ergos.

                  James and Norbro, have you shot on the C70 extensively in a variety of situations? Personally, I don't know anyone who loves the ergonomics of that camera ( I own one). It has a lot going for it, and it was clearly conceived to be shot handheld, and yet that is exactly where it doesn't feel right. The FX6 is leagues better in that regard, especially if you are shooting for longer stretches.

                  The number of important bells and whistles that the c70 packs into a relatively small package is indeed fantastic, but the overall ergonomics leave a lot to be desired when shooting with it extensively handheld.

                  The last point about the non-rotating handle and the balance being off is huge. In my experience, this camera will destroy your wrist if you try to shoot with it all day handheld. The HDMI is indeed seriously problematic since it sticks out exactly where your left hand needs to cradle the camera when pulling focus manually.

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                    #39
                    Yeah, we're all different but what you guys are saying makes perfect sense for anyone who knows cameras and in general knows how production people vary.

                    For me, I don't use HDMI for anything or pull focus manually (no more manual focus ever for me) or attach anything to the camera, so none of the above is applicable.

                    With that said, I'm a mirrorless guy so using the camera comes pretty natural. A little chunky though.

                    But I've held out cameras like stills camera for many years so maybe my wrists are trained, IDK.

                    The programmability is a problem, but this is a Canon problem, IMO. They are at the bottom of what you're allowed to choose and where, and it's pretty frustrating (at least in the mirrorless' although they have improved).

                    I liked using the FX6 too and thought its handle was great.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by James0b57 View Post
                      also, knowing Canon, the R5C is going to be $8K+, pricing it out of its own use bracket.
                      BTW, yeah, sounds like it...no way less than $6500, $7K.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Andy9 View Post

                        Really? I would say that ergonomics and usability are the big downsides of the C70 - HDMI cable sticking out towards operator (when shooting handheld), mediocre LCD with a flimsy, floppy mount, lack of mounting points, odd choice of non-programmable buttons in prime positions, non-rotating side grip along with a general feeling of it not being balanced (though I suppose this depends on battery size and lens choice).

                        My everyday camera is the FX6 and to me they are like night and day ergonomics-wise. The only thing I prefer about the C70 is that you can send the camera's focus mag and peaking to an HDMI connected monitor / EVF.
                        The HDMI out the side is a shame. every other camera has a similar issue just about though. i recall saying how i disliked the side attaching hdmi on the BMP6K and JB got on my case about it, and since then i have eased up about it. why? because it has been over a decade and the MF’ers are still putting the HDMI in that stupid spot. so, considering that is how they are all doing it, of the cameras being made, the C70 is my overall favorite at this time.

                        - internal ND
                        - good full grip, but not BMPCC huge.
                        - flip out screen (since the Canon 60D, i’ve found the side flippy to be useful)
                        - manual audio controls, while not entirely ideal, much better than the YAGH or hotshot variants
                        - good battery and media makes shooting not a big care (so many cameras run out of bat or the media sucks)
                        - light weight enough to shoot handheld (for example the C300 might’ve had a side handle but it was torture on the wrists



                        there is certainly room for improvement. would be nice to have a heavier duty swivel on the flip screen so a good diopter could be attached without needing to add that zach to contraption.the cable i/o could be ina better place, especially since there is no EVF, they could attach up top or whatever. but at this point i have been shaking my fist at the corporations since at least 2008, and i think they won.

                        The FX6 has a lot of good too. But at the end of the day it plays a little too C300 style for me. aka niether designed for handheld or shoulder work. gets an oversized handy cam treatment and vaguely resembles bigger professional cameras. certainly the Fx6 is one of the best versions of what it is so far, but also is a bit neither here more there for me.

                        i just wish there was less reinventing the wheel and more innovation based on succesful designs. DSLR is proven to be the best and ENG has proven to be the best. most other designs are compromises.









                        in the image above, the top bump of the camera gives a nice notch for SDI/hdmi/xlr input/outputs

                        things like headphones and usb can go else where.


                        the operator side could be more similar to ENG controls. those control layouts work excellently for should rigs, and at the same time can work in handheld too. but handheld might see some right hand dominant control, and should might see left hand dominant control. but still, majority of the instant access buttons would be on the op side, for should and tripod pro work. and then dslr style on the right hand grip for incognito or run n gun freestyle. a literal best of both worlds.

                        Last edited by James0b57; Today, 12:37 AM.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by ozmorphasis View Post

                          Yeah, I'm a bit shocked by James and Norbro's positive comments about the c70 ergos.

                          James and Norbro, have you shot on the C70 extensively in a variety of situations? Personally, I don't know anyone who loves the ergonomics of that camera ( I own one). It has a lot going for it, and it was clearly conceived to be shot handheld, and yet that is exactly where it doesn't feel right. The FX6 is leagues better in that regard, especially if you are shooting for longer stretches.

                          The number of important bells and whistles that the c70 packs into a relatively small package is indeed fantastic, but the overall ergonomics leave a lot to be desired when shooting with it extensively handheld.

                          The last point about the non-rotating handle and the balance being off is huge. In my experience, this camera will destroy your wrist if you try to shoot with it all day handheld. The HDMI is indeed seriously problematic since it sticks out exactly where your left hand needs to cradle the camera when pulling focus manually.



                          You may have me there. but it was an almost instantly familiar feel and i was able to operate it with ease and comfort similar to dslr and mirroless cameras.

                          i have not used it extensively. so perhaps the buttons might eventually become annoying? the main button/scroll controls i am concerned about being ergonomic are:
                          - focus
                          - iris
                          - iso
                          - shutter
                          - WB
                          - ND

                          as long as those are easy, then much of the rest i can deal with. menus are menus, etc.

                          i found it was intuitive for anyone accustomed to Canon DSLR, but with internal ND and physical audio controls on board. that is a big deal really.


                          The FX6 is a fine camera. i don’t think we’ll have too much disagreement. i just prefer the dslr ergonomics to the Fs5/FX6 baby box with a side handle. The controls are accesible on the side for tripod use, but when going handheld, whether actually in the hand or the shoulder those ergonomics aren’t quite all that amazing. It is a good compromise however, and if the Fx6 had a pilot mic and in-body xlr, my opinion would shift more positive torwards it. but i’d still probably prefer dslr mirrorless. as for the side handle pívot vs fixed, i prefer fixed. perhaps it is my ENG days, i just like the camera to stay one shape. all the modular stuff is over rated.


                          C70 i see as a “1st gen” iteration, and if they can refine it for the C80 or whatever, it has a ton of potential. all of the small cameras have big issues for me, but the C70 has the most potential. if they relocate the hdmi and xlr, and leave the op side for controls (hence making shoulder and tripod work easier) they’ll have a camera that appeals to video shooters.

                          i certainly have a hard time letting go of the EVF, especially since the Panasonic S1H has such a good one, and the A7s3 is great too. but i found that a durable flippy screen and good diopter can end up being more what i use for motion capture.- just hate to give up the internal evf since they’re so good now and unceasingly low profile. and in the case of the As73 and FX3, they don’t cost anything apparently. haha.

                          ultimately the lack of dynamic range pushed me away from the C70.
                          Last edited by James0b57; Today, 12:16 AM.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by NorBro View Post

                            BTW, yeah, sounds like it...no way less than $6500, $7K.
                            i can’t imagine Canon giving anything a way. they must still be butt hurt about the dslr revolution, because we the consumer actually won for a little while.

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                              #44
                              The concept that the c70 needs refining is dumb. All the problems of the c70 were obvious when it was a pencil sketch

                              (apart from the quality of the hinge)
                              http://www.sammorganmoore.com View my feature Film

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by James0b57 View Post


                                The FX6 has a lot of good too. But at the end of the day it plays a little too C300 style for me. aka niether designed for handheld or shoulder work. gets an oversized handy cam treatment and vaguely resembles bigger professional cameras. certainly the Fx6 is one of the best versions of what it is so far, but also is a bit neither here more there for me.

                                i just wish there was less reinventing the wheel and more innovation based on succesful designs. DSLR is proven to be the best and ENG has proven to be the best. most other designs are compromises.
                                I know what you mean about the FX6 being neither one thing nor the other. I use it with a Cinebags-type camera support around my waist - this is obviously good for waist-height shooting and also braced against the shoulder (elbow on camera support). Obviously, not everyone shoots this way but I prefer it to shoulder mount and it's a lot more flexible. The rotating handle is great for this kind of shooting.

                                Even just holding the camera out in front of the body though (DSLR-style?), I don't see how the C70 is better than the FX6. It isn't even lighter. And I don't think the C300s compare either, being top heavy and much heavier than the FX6.


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