24p Workflow for FCP!

[skinnyboy]

FCP Workflow for 24p

I have FCP 5.02 on a dual 2GHz G5
After much hair-pulling and scouring all the websites I could find, I finally came up with a workflow that works.

Here's what needs to happen:
1) you need to import correctly from the camera into FCP
2) you need to remove pulldown from the footage - this can't be done in FCP
3) you need to create a new sequence that will play nice with the pulldown-removed clip

Seems pretty simple, but if there's a mistake at any point along the way, it won't work properly.

I have taken info from various sites and after trial and error came up with the following:

IMPORTING FROM HV20:

Use Easy Setup (Final Cut Pro menu - Easy Setup) and select "HDV - 1080i60"
create a new project
import your footage
(You should be able to play the footage in the default sequence with no rendering at this point. Still need to do some pulldown removal for 24p, though, so don't be too happy.)
Save your project.

REMOVING PULLDOWN:

You can do this by hand in Compressor, but I have no idea how.
For simplicity, use JES_DeInterlacer (free - download at http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html)
Select the file you just imported into FCP (it will be in "Capture Scratch" somewhere).
INPUT field:
check "Top field first"
DON'T check "Progressive"
leave all else as is

PROJECT field:
select "Inverse telecine" from the drop-down and use the defaults

COLOR field:
I do nothing here - feel free to experiment

OUTPUT field: (this is where I hit a wall)
down in "Video Output" select "Direct" and choose "Apple Intermediate Codec" from the drop-down. There's lots of talk online about using "Photo-JPEG", but I could never get that to play nice with FCP, so I recommend using AIC.

Hit "OK" and wait for it to do it's thing - it does 2 passes per clip, and it's pretty fast.

BACK IN FCP:

Import the clip you just cleaned up with JES (it makes a new clip and adds "proj" to the original clip name).
Set up a NEW SEQUENCE (Apple-N) and then control-click on it and select "Settings"
Aspect Ratio: HD (1440x1080) (16x9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: HD (1440x1080)
Compressor: Apple Intermediate Codec

That ought to do it. You can drag your clip into that sequence and there should be no rendering needed.

My problem was that I was following all the advice online and using "Photo-JPEG", but it would not behave in FCP. I always had to render. I think it has something to do with the Aspect Ratio being 1920x1080 and the Pixel Aspect Ratio being "Square" when I used that. If someone knows how to make that behave, please post.

Please add any corrections, improvements, etc. to this workflow. I hope this is helpful to folks!

Jason

[Cinetastic]

Over at DVinfo thread a suggestion was:

"How to get true 24p with Final Cut and Cinema Tools

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I use Final Cut Pro and Cinema Tools to get the job done. Cinema Tools comes with the Final Cut Studio Package.

Step 1. Open Final Cut Pro, Close any projects that might be open, go to Final Cut Pro>Easy Setup. Choose HDV 1080/60i.

Step 2. Go to Final Cut Pro>Audio/Video Settings, and under Capture Preset choose HDV Apple Intermediate Codec -- (Very Important!)

Step 3. Open a new project (unless one opened automatically), Open Log and Capture, and Capture footage just as you would normal dv footage.

Step 4. Save your project!!!!! Close Final Cut.

Step 5. Now here is the extra step that people are complaining about. Instead of removing pulldown in final cut, you have to do it in Cinema Tools....It really is easy once you know how to do it. (takes a while to explain, but is quick when you do it)

First, each clip you capture must begin with the first progressive frame in the sequence of three.....Sounds complicated? it's not really. Because of the HDV Standard, clips are captured in a sequence of 2 interlaced frames, then 3 progressive frames, then 2 interlaced, then 3 progressive, and so on.... I've seen it like this- iipppiipppiipppiippp - you must trim your clip so that it begins on the first progressive frame in the sequence of 3. Easily done by going to your capture scratch and opening you clips in quicktime. use the arrow keys to advance frames one by one. It is pretty easy to tell which frames are progressive, and which are interlaced. command-x removes the current frame. Once you have it to where the first three frames of the clip are progressive, save and close quicktime. Then Open Cinema Tools and click cancel when it asks to open a database. Go to File>Open, choose your clip. Now click Reverse Telecine, the button on the right side of the viewer. Set it to 23.98 frames per second, and click DD at the bottom. Click ok and save it. Once it's done. You've got true 24p. Import the clips into a Final Cut project, Got to Sequence>Settings, and Change the Timeline to 23.98 FPS. Now you can edit in 24p. I haven't really messed around with the export settings, but I'm sure it would be easy to figure out.
I know that it seems like a lot to do this, but you'll see that once you try it, it really is a very simple and quick process, and Totally worth it to get the quality. It's not really worth complaining over, especially because of the price and features of this camera."

[skinnyboy]

I saw that, but there's that neat little statement "It is pretty easy to tell which frames are progressive, and which are interlaced". I can't tell at all.
JES_Deinterlacer takes the guess work out.
If someone could explain what to look for, I'd love to give it a shot. I plan to ask over at DVInfo, once my registration is accepted and I'm allowed to post (been waiting 3 days now).

[Jay Stebbins]

Skinnyboy,

It you open a clip in qicktime and use your arrow keys on the keyboard you will be able to move through the frames one by one. Look at the picture where there is motion in the picture, You will see jaggies along the lines in that area when the frame is interlaced. There will be two interlaced frames in a row. Then there will be three progressive frames. When looking at the progressive frames those same lines will be nice and clean, as if you were looking at a photo. As that what progressive is, many photos taken in a low per second.

When there is little or know motion in the frame it can be difficult to see the jagged interlace artifacts. I am unsure why you can not see them in final cut pro.

I also think having to open each clip and find the frames to use Cinema Tools is a complete hassle. I tend to shoot many short clips. (15 seconds) It is easy to do, but I have much better things to do with my time. The one thing you can't by more of is time.

Good luck,
Jay

[skinnyboy]

Thanks - I see it now.
But I can't get Cinema Tools to de-interlace.

Oh, well. My workflow works fine. And I agree - going through a bunch of clips and doing that is no fun. Something like JES makes it much easier.

[Zim]

this all gives me a headache.

Can I get the DVX100b record in 24pa then import and just edit? Can I record 24p and import into a 60i timline and get good results?

I thought I was going to be able to record HDV 24p with the HV20 and get good results. But some of you are saying it is blurry. Has anyone tried it without the pull down and it looked good?

[skinnyboy]

Zim,

It's actually not that hard once you know what to do. If you follow the steps in my workflow, it's not that big a deal at all.
As far as comparing to the DVX - you have less steps with the DVX. All you have to do is import and start editing. But, 24p is a pain there, too, if you don't import correctly. It's all about doing eveything right the first time.

The footage I've taken is great - looks stunning. I'll be posting some soon. I'm not sure who was saying it looks blurry, but check out the footage people have posted and see for yourself. There's some here at dvxuser, and more over on hv20.com.

[Zim]

skinnyboy how does the 1080i/60 look? The work flow on that should be a breeze. Most people are only talking about 24p.

[skinnyboy]

That looks pretty darn good, also. It's really easy to deal with, as far as editing goes.
Just use the "HDV - 1080i60" preset in FCP.
What you do with it after that is the fun part (HD DVD?, down-res to SD?), but that's just a matter of what you can do with your equipment, and what format you want to present it on.

There's footage of that on here as well. Notably - someone went to a racetrack and shot some cars. Very impressive.

[Zim]

Originally Posted by skinnyboy

That looks pretty darn good, also. It's really easy to deal with, as far as editing goes.
Just use the "HDV - 1080i60" preset in FCP.
What you do with it after that is the fun part (HD DVD?, down-res to SD?), but that's just a matter of what you can do with your equipment, and what format you want to present it on.

There's footage of that on here as well. Notably - someone went to a racetrack and shot some cars. Very impressive.

I that was impressive even on my powerbook.