Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

commanderspike · 05-31-2009, 09:56 PM

Okay so many of us have found that the GH1 is a very promising camera but it's biggest flaw in my eyes is not the lack of 24mps AVCHD or HDMI live out, but rather the major bug with the full HD mode and motion blur.

Anything approaching a fast pan removes all the detail from the picture, making it look like an ultra compressed 700kps web stream. The problem is a lot worse on my GH1 than I was expecting. I have the Japanese model.

I have also found when playing back the full HD footage after removing pull-down artefacts with JES and Final Cut Pro, the moment the pan introduces the 'mud' effect this puts a bigger toll on my CPU and the footage stutters to a halt. I have a Core 2 Duo 2.16ghz Macbook Pro and will do more research into what is causing this. But it's as if the effect of motion blur overloads the codec.

So could the problem be with the way the GH1's processor is handling motion, overloading the codec?

I don't think the issue is with the auto-ISO control or high ISO, because in full manual mode with ISO fixed at 100 it happens as bad as ever.

And what do I think of 720p? The mud effect is indeed lesser. But I don't like it as much as 1080p 24p. It's not making use of even 720p's reduced resolution. Lots of jaggies, which would have to be smoothed over by time consuming post processing.

I really really want to get a fix for this.

24p full HD is a must have. Nothing a good firmware update can't fix! (I hope)

Screen grabs:

Static handheld shot:

Start of pan (continues like this until the pan ends)

stephenvv · 05-31-2009, 11:09 PM

Until someone shoots tests with film shutter speed (1/40th to 1/50th) with proper pulldown removal and factors out OIS, we don't yet know what the codec issues are.

From what I read here, Neoscene is the only tool removing pulldown correctly - although a patch for VoltaireHD is due soon.

Handheld pans at higher shutter speed could well cause problems but I avoid those anyway.

It should be noted that panning speed causes problems with all 24p - from film to HD, so until some better tests are done, the jury is still out.

sunburst · 05-31-2009, 11:43 PM

"Holy Grail" , or Growing Hail ?

John Caballero · 05-31-2009, 11:43 PM

There are pans out there already that don't look anything like that. I dunno but thats way too extreme looking. Something else must be at play there.

Orchidthief · 05-31-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Caballero

There are pans out there already that don't look anything like that. I dunno but thats way too extreme looking. Something else must be at play there.

I agree...If this is what happens during pans, which I pray isn't the fact, I'll have to re-evaluate my purchase. I'm pretty careful with pans as it is, but this screen grab looks horrid and unacceptable.

artforme · 05-31-2009, 11:56 PM

It could be your computer. What are you specs?

John Caballero · 05-31-2009, 11:59 PM

I am thinking maybe the SD card lower speed might affect the data capture, thus affecting the footage. Panasonic has their own cards specifically marketed for their AVCHD cameras. Is like the Compact Flash cards for the Red One. They have to be Red One certified because of the special needs of the camera's data capture speeds and processing.

commanderspike · 06-01-2009, 12:04 AM

I don't think this is to do with pulldown or my computer. Reasons:

- Followed the workflows recommended on this forum very closely, the panning corruption cannot be removed no matter what I try, I have successfully deinterlaced and followed the pulldown stuff to the max, with FCP and JES. Checked and double checked settings.

- The same corruption appears in raw AVCHD footage MTS files, and on the GH1's LCD screen when playing back recorded footage, but not when panning in live view. 90% sure anyway, it's hard to judge it from a small screen - will double check later.

- Computer is a Macbook Pro 17", Core 2 Duo, ATI Radeon X1600 GPU. Latest version of Final Cut Pro (FCP), JES, Leopard, etc.

The corruption does not occur all the time, seems to be due to the amount of detail present in the frame but even then... it sometimes takes me by surprise. Had a lot of normal on the fly footage damaged from this bug with the GH1.

I am none too happy about it. Firmware update please!!!!!

John Caballero · 06-01-2009, 12:04 AM

What SD card are you using? How fast is it?

commanderspike · 06-01-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Caballero

I am thinking maybe the SD card lower speed might affect the data capture, thus affecting the footage. Panasonic has their own cards specifically marketed for their AVCHD cameras. Is like the Compact Flash cards for the Red One. They have to be Red One certified because of the special needs of the camera's data capture speeds and processing.

I hope it is this.

Most plausible suggestion I've heard so far.

I am using a cheapo brand 8GB SDHC card, with high specs. 22MB read, which is pretty fast, but write is quoted lower - as 10MB.

They have a Sandisk Extreme III SDHC which quotes 30MB read AND write speeds. I believe it when I see it. Its very expensive... but may buy it anyway to see if it improves matters.

Like I say...I HOPE SO.

05-31-2009, 09:56 PM	#1
commanderspike Bronze Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Manchester, U.K. Posts: 1,158	Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update Okay so many of us have found that the GH1 is a very promising camera but it's biggest flaw in my eyes is not the lack of 24mps AVCHD or HDMI live out, but rather the major bug with the full HD mode and motion blur. Anything approaching a fast pan removes all the detail from the picture, making it look like an ultra compressed 700kps web stream. The problem is a lot worse on my GH1 than I was expecting. I have the Japanese model. I have also found when playing back the full HD footage after removing pull-down artefacts with JES and Final Cut Pro, the moment the pan introduces the 'mud' effect this puts a bigger toll on my CPU and the footage stutters to a halt. I have a Core 2 Duo 2.16ghz Macbook Pro and will do more research into what is causing this. But it's as if the effect of motion blur overloads the codec. So could the problem be with the way the GH1's processor is handling motion, overloading the codec? I don't think the issue is with the auto-ISO control or high ISO, because in full manual mode with ISO fixed at 100 it happens as bad as ever. And what do I think of 720p? The mud effect is indeed lesser. But I don't like it as much as 1080p 24p. It's not making use of even 720p's reduced resolution. Lots of jaggies, which would have to be smoothed over by time consuming post processing. I really really want to get a fix for this. 24p full HD is a must have. Nothing a good firmware update can't fix! (I hope) Screen grabs: Static handheld shot: Start of pan (continues like this until the pan ends) Last edited by commanderspike; 05-31-2009 at 11:02 PM.

05-31-2009, 11:09 PM	#2
stephenvv Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Greensboro NC Posts: 452	Until someone shoots tests with film shutter speed (1/40th to 1/50th) with proper pulldown removal and factors out OIS, we don't yet know what the codec issues are. From what I read here, Neoscene is the only tool removing pulldown correctly - although a patch for VoltaireHD is due soon. Handheld pans at higher shutter speed could well cause problems but I avoid those anyway. It should be noted that panning speed causes problems with all 24p - from film to HD, so until some better tests are done, the jury is still out. __________________ stephen v2 www.outsideinthemovie.com "A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later." Stanley Kubrick

05-31-2009, 11:56 PM	#6
artforme Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 354	It could be your computer. What are you specs? __________________

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05-31-2009, 11:43 PM	#3
sunburst Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 250	"Holy Grail" , or Growing Hail ?

05-31-2009, 11:43 PM	#4
John Caballero Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: N.Y.C. Posts: 1,760	There are pans out there already that don't look anything like that. I dunno but thats way too extreme looking. Something else must be at play there.

05-31-2009, 11:59 PM	#7
John Caballero Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: N.Y.C. Posts: 1,760	I am thinking maybe the SD card lower speed might affect the data capture, thus affecting the footage. Panasonic has their own cards specifically marketed for their AVCHD cameras. Is like the Compact Flash cards for the Red One. They have to be Red One certified because of the special needs of the camera's data capture speeds and processing.

06-01-2009, 12:04 AM	#8
commanderspike Bronze Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Manchester, U.K. Posts: 1,158	I don't think this is to do with pulldown or my computer. Reasons: - Followed the workflows recommended on this forum very closely, the panning corruption cannot be removed no matter what I try, I have successfully deinterlaced and followed the pulldown stuff to the max, with FCP and JES. Checked and double checked settings. - The same corruption appears in raw AVCHD footage MTS files, and on the GH1's LCD screen when playing back recorded footage, but not when panning in live view. 90% sure anyway, it's hard to judge it from a small screen - will double check later. - Computer is a Macbook Pro 17", Core 2 Duo, ATI Radeon X1600 GPU. Latest version of Final Cut Pro (FCP), JES, Leopard, etc. The corruption does not occur all the time, seems to be due to the amount of detail present in the frame but even then... it sometimes takes me by surprise. Had a lot of normal on the fly footage damaged from this bug with the GH1. I am none too happy about it. Firmware update please!!!!!