HDMI uncompressed capture - heres the first - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

timmytimetravel · 09-24-2008, 12:47 PM

Here it is.

More later when the stores open and I can get a longer hdmi cable. So judge not by the grain

The movie is encoded in h264 to get it small enough up onto dvx. Full uncompressed one can be found at link below for testing.

You can note that the only way to get rid of the focus frame in the middle is to switch it to Portrait or portait nightscene mode. This then limits automatic functions but doesn't limit locking them in before going into LV mode using AE-L and then using manual aperture on the lens. If you hit record on the unit at the same time (which it lets you do), you can then get rid of the square in other modes, but you gain a flashing "Rec" and counter in the top right of the frame... Trade offs but some flexibility depending if you are an auto or manual type bod.

Note also blackmagic hdmi intensity pro will not sync with this in 1080i mode. It will however sync when pushing the menu button as shown by the capture sizes below. That may suggest that it can put out 1080 in that part of the internals, but somewhere else inside it is upscaled, or simply just doesn't let you output 1080 from liveview. Firmwareable? maybe... If anyone has any other tricks you want me to try to try trick it, go ahead and suggest

It doesn't look like the aliasing on horizontal/diagonal lines is due to compression as you can see by the tub pic.

It also doesnt look like it outputs audio over HDMI! I tested with another cam that does, and it works fine.

Aside from getting clearer shots in better light open to suggestions for any more testing.

Cheers

H.264 compressed

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/40285/1222281616.mov

Uncompressed.

http://rapidshare.com/files/14807764...short.mov.html

http://rapidshare.com/files/148080750/85mmf1.4.pct.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14808075..._pic2.pct.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/148080753/menu720.pct.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/148080754/menu1080.pct.html

Karsvall · 09-24-2008, 01:11 PM

When you make your tests could you please also record the same shot on the card and put that up so that we can compare the differents captures.

timmytimetravel · 09-24-2008, 05:01 PM

Kholi · 09-24-2008, 05:46 PM

Well at first glance it seems to be a little better if I'm looking at these right.

timmytimetravel · 09-24-2008, 05:55 PM

And here is the rest

http://rapidshare.com/files/14814111...essed.mov.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14814405...short.mov.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14814112...orter.mov.html

And a VR demo at 300mm in h264 off and on.

http://rapidshare.com/files/14814405..._h264.mov.html

Kholi · 09-24-2008, 06:00 PM

Actually, I take that back. =T Looks the same, just with the stuff all around it.

timmytimetravel · 09-24-2008, 11:57 PM

I havent had time to really do more than prepare and upload it vs assess it, but I tend to agree.... Either something is bogus in my testing or...?

Does that really just mean what we are getting to some extent, say noise in blacks, is simply what its pumping out prior to compression?

Is there any chance it is actually putting out compressed on the hdmi?
I kind of thought no since I read the posts suggesting the d300 put out uncompressed. Figured it was a given. Did people actually see a difference in the d300 uncompressed grabs?

I've never really used capture cards before... I presume if it is set to sample at a certain rate (in this case 720 59.94 or 60 frames is the only menu selection in the intensity). Then does that mean it will essentially create that data stream out of what it finds regardless if its compressed or not. I presume so.

Eg, create a uncompressed compressed signal. All nice, high data rate, requires raid 0 to even play the clips etc... But could still be compressed??

Is there a way of knowing for sure aside from looking for less compression artifacts?

For something with a red sized sensor, if someone with red shot one of these clips, and set it to 720 uncompressed, and used similar nikon glass. Would be seeing these artifacts? How about doing a red capture uncompressed at 720 and then running though nikons compression scheme... Would you come up with something like these shots?

I got an em from someone at blackmagic today, I asked them if they would like to have a tech weigh in here.. At the very least if we can nail a list of things we dont like about the hdmi out, overlays, frame in picture, no audio etc - we could probably add it to a laundry list of LV wishes, and feed it back to Nikon for f/w updates, or next version.... after all, looks like the war is on, and these are some of the bits that will make good forum reviews for future buyers

Spybreaka · 09-25-2008, 05:40 AM

timmytimetravel: Just wondering if you've had any issues with the signal dropping out? I find that occasionally it will simply stop outputting to the cable. I'm using a 5m mini-hdmi to hdmi cable, I guess I'm wondering if the issue is the cable or the camera? Might need to get a shorter cale. :/

timmytimetravel · 09-25-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spybreaka

timmytimetravel: Just wondering if you've had any issues with the signal dropping out? I find that occasionally it will simply stop outputting to the cable. I'm using a 5m mini-hdmi to hdmi cable, I guess I'm wondering if the issue is the cable or the camera? Might need to get a shorter cale. :/

Yes indeed! Thought it was just me. Sent this em to blackmagic.

"I had a bit of trouble where the express software would drop sync to it in 720. I could go to prefs and set it to another mode and back , no difference . I could unplug the hdmi live or when it was off and in again no difference . Intermittantly though it would work . But only in the beginning . It had no problems with another cam plugging in and out .

Quiting program and restarting mac pro made no diff either .

Only way I got it to work in the end was to sync the 1080 camera in 1080 . Unplug hdmi . Plug into d90 and then change to 720 ."

So. Perhaps mystery solved. I am using a mini c type to std hdmi cable adapter, got from these guys. Really handy on the end of a short hdmi<>dvi cable to plug into lcd tft for steadi work.

http://www.dcables.net/index.asp?Pag...OD&ProdID=1118

I thought it might have been the adapter, and I've tried plugging different lengths of std hdmi cabling inbetween. Seems a little less likely to sync with a longer cable, but not conclusive. But even with a std length cable I had problems.

If you are using a straight 5m mini<>hdmi, and I am getting similar results with the mini adapter cable (and that makes perfect sense that it is the camera dropping the connection given intensity seems rock solid with another cam) means it is VERY LIKELY there is intermittent problems with the hdmi connection.

And if plugging and unplugging in itself did not fix it, but switching expectant hdmi handshakes does and then plugging unplugging. More likely a firmware handshake type problem than hardware....

I thought it might have been related to capture, but I presume you are talking about playback of pics / video on a hdmi tv or monitor?

Might almost be worth a new thread. Would encourage people to check it out early.
If they have to fix on part of the hdmi, why not fix a bunch of our other suggestions!!!

(assuming its not hardware of course, which would sux).

Mini hdmi (type c) not used too much yet. Seems like sony camcorders are the biggest users when I went hunting for cables. Maybe we could do some sony forum searching and see if its a general issue with mini hdmi, though I doubt it...

Cheers

Spybreaka · 09-25-2008, 06:23 PM

Yea it's on a TV. Two different TVs actually. Both showed the same issues. It simply would stop displaying anything. One of the TV's which detects attached devices and lets you select sources dependent on what is attached stops listing HDMI as a source when this happens. So it really does look like there is some sort of handshake issue. I haven't tried changing the output setting on the camera when this happens, but I'll give it a go and report back.

I searched a bit around yesterday but wasn't able to find people having the same issue specifically with mini-hdmi cables. People talk about dropouts with hdmi and blame the cables, but I think I'll wait to see what others dig up on these cables before arguing for a refund. It'll be very annoying if we can't hook up an external screen for focusing purposes to this thing due to hdmi issues! Nikon better fix it if there is a problem.

09-24-2008, 12:47 PM	#1
timmytimetravel Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hawaii Posts: 59	HDMI uncompressed capture - heres the first Here it is. More later when the stores open and I can get a longer hdmi cable. So judge not by the grain The movie is encoded in h264 to get it small enough up onto dvx. Full uncompressed one can be found at link below for testing. You can note that the only way to get rid of the focus frame in the middle is to switch it to Portrait or portait nightscene mode. This then limits automatic functions but doesn't limit locking them in before going into LV mode using AE-L and then using manual aperture on the lens. If you hit record on the unit at the same time (which it lets you do), you can then get rid of the square in other modes, but you gain a flashing "Rec" and counter in the top right of the frame... Trade offs but some flexibility depending if you are an auto or manual type bod. Note also blackmagic hdmi intensity pro will not sync with this in 1080i mode. It will however sync when pushing the menu button as shown by the capture sizes below. That may suggest that it can put out 1080 in that part of the internals, but somewhere else inside it is upscaled, or simply just doesn't let you output 1080 from liveview. Firmwareable? maybe... If anyone has any other tricks you want me to try to try trick it, go ahead and suggest It doesn't look like the aliasing on horizontal/diagonal lines is due to compression as you can see by the tub pic. It also doesnt look like it outputs audio over HDMI! I tested with another cam that does, and it works fine. Aside from getting clearer shots in better light open to suggestions for any more testing. Cheers H.264 compressed http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/40285/1222281616.mov Uncompressed. http://rapidshare.com/files/14807764...short.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/148080750/85mmf1.4.pct.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14808075..._pic2.pct.html http://rapidshare.com/files/148080753/menu720.pct.html http://rapidshare.com/files/148080754/menu1080.pct.html

09-24-2008, 05:46 PM	#4
Kholi One who scribbles Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,909	Well at first glance it seems to be a little better if I'm looking at these right. __________________ \| RED ONE \|

09-24-2008, 06:00 PM	#6
Kholi One who scribbles Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,909	Actually, I take that back. =T Looks the same, just with the stuff all around it. __________________ \| RED ONE \|

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09-24-2008, 01:11 PM	#2
Karsvall Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 32	When you make your tests could you please also record the same shot on the card and put that up so that we can compare the differents captures.

09-24-2008, 05:01 PM	#3
timmytimetravel Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hawaii Posts: 59	Here is round one of tests. Uncompressed pictures then uncompressed vids. The rocks were on a tamron 28-300 VR (testing macro) The charts and backyard were on either the 50mm1.4 or the 85mm1.4 Questions? Suggestions? Conclusions? Etc.... http://rapidshare.com/files/14812916...m_cam.PCT.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812916..._hdmi.PCT.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812916...m_cam.pct.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812916..._hdmi.PCT.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812917...ompressed.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812917...ompressed.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812917...ompressed.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812917...ompressed.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14812917...ompressed.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14813488..._hdmi.MOV.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14813488...m_cam.MOV.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14813488..._hdmi.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14813488...m_cam.mov.html

09-24-2008, 05:55 PM	#5
timmytimetravel Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hawaii Posts: 59	And here is the rest http://rapidshare.com/files/14814111...essed.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14814405...short.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/14814112...orter.mov.html And a VR demo at 300mm in h264 off and on. http://rapidshare.com/files/14814405..._h264.mov.html

09-24-2008, 11:57 PM	#7
timmytimetravel Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hawaii Posts: 59	I havent had time to really do more than prepare and upload it vs assess it, but I tend to agree.... Either something is bogus in my testing or...? Does that really just mean what we are getting to some extent, say noise in blacks, is simply what its pumping out prior to compression? Is there any chance it is actually putting out compressed on the hdmi? I kind of thought no since I read the posts suggesting the d300 put out uncompressed. Figured it was a given. Did people actually see a difference in the d300 uncompressed grabs? I've never really used capture cards before... I presume if it is set to sample at a certain rate (in this case 720 59.94 or 60 frames is the only menu selection in the intensity). Then does that mean it will essentially create that data stream out of what it finds regardless if its compressed or not. I presume so. Eg, create a uncompressed compressed signal. All nice, high data rate, requires raid 0 to even play the clips etc... But could still be compressed?? Is there a way of knowing for sure aside from looking for less compression artifacts? For something with a red sized sensor, if someone with red shot one of these clips, and set it to 720 uncompressed, and used similar nikon glass. Would be seeing these artifacts? How about doing a red capture uncompressed at 720 and then running though nikons compression scheme... Would you come up with something like these shots? I got an em from someone at blackmagic today, I asked them if they would like to have a tech weigh in here.. At the very least if we can nail a list of things we dont like about the hdmi out, overlays, frame in picture, no audio etc - we could probably add it to a laundry list of LV wishes, and feed it back to Nikon for f/w updates, or next version.... after all, looks like the war is on, and these are some of the bits that will make good forum reviews for future buyers

09-25-2008, 05:40 AM	#8
Spybreaka Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 22	timmytimetravel: Just wondering if you've had any issues with the signal dropping out? I find that occasionally it will simply stop outputting to the cable. I'm using a 5m mini-hdmi to hdmi cable, I guess I'm wondering if the issue is the cable or the camera? Might need to get a shorter cale. :/

09-25-2008, 06:23 PM	#10
Spybreaka Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 22	Yea it's on a TV. Two different TVs actually. Both showed the same issues. It simply would stop displaying anything. One of the TV's which detects attached devices and lets you select sources dependent on what is attached stops listing HDMI as a source when this happens. So it really does look like there is some sort of handshake issue. I haven't tried changing the output setting on the camera when this happens, but I'll give it a go and report back. I searched a bit around yesterday but wasn't able to find people having the same issue specifically with mini-hdmi cables. People talk about dropouts with hdmi and blame the cables, but I think I'll wait to see what others dig up on these cables before arguing for a refund. It'll be very annoying if we can't hook up an external screen for focusing purposes to this thing due to hdmi issues! Nikon better fix it if there is a problem.