I think for narrative productions with a moderate amount of shooting per day, Red Drive will make sense. For those shooting docs, news, etc. with tighter time schedules and higher quantities of footage per day, or low personnel shoots, Red is going to be a big challenge - somewhere in there is the threshold where it won't make sense. IT based solutions are looking to be cheaper overall (no expensive decks required, IT based backup pricing), BUT are looking to definitely be more complicated and manpower intensive.
Under stress and duress, would you rather have something simpler but more expensive, or cheaper but more complicated?
Simpler is going to often win out of necessity for many circumstances.
Keep in mind, Red isn't going to be ideal for every project and circumstance.
In terms of the proposed on set backup and processing - transfer speeds are going to be at least as fast as realtime (otherwise you couldn't have recorded it to that device, no?). Assuming you have a SATA bus on your laptop (think 3rd party card), perhaps copy over to something like another SATA drive or a multi-drive FW800 RAID like a LaCie or G-Tech model.
The other issue of on-set conversion to client friendly format (perhaps native codecs for Avid/FCP/PPro) - I'm inclined to guess that's going to be a slower than realtime process (but I don't know for sure) on a laptop - tough to hand to client at end of day.
Would you clone tapes on set and give one to client? Or just hand to client and it is their problem? These are all problems to be addressed, new workflows to be resolved. If you can copy off to cheap storage (that client is billed for or client provides) and turn it over, case closed - it is their problem to back it up, etc.
However, from my pre-press days back in the 90s, we often had to hnd over large amounts of data to clients. Client provided hard drives were notorious for problems - they wouldn't mount, they would fail and we'd get blamed and be expected to replace the data, or they'd be problematic - they'd have data on them, and gee, can we delete that to put your data on it?
And if we provided them the storage (Zip or Jazz carts back then), getting them back was a nightmare - they'd always hang on to them forever, or lose them, or something. So we had to charge a deposit for the carts, and tracking the billing on them was always a pain because the volume of the job flow was so large.
Then clients complained about getting charged $100 for a $50 item...which we needed to do in order to incentive them to return them to us, otherwise we were their Jazz cart store (a profitless business we didn't want to be in).
If you decide to have a bunch of Red Drives and will hand them to client and expect to get them back....well, you better have a bunch of them - producers will be busy, they won't have gotten it done yet, they'll be nervous about it waiting for a second backup. Or they'll have done that, and haven't had a chance to get it back to you.
Ideally, what we're going to need is a media format that is fast, cheap enough to GIVE to client and charge them a minor/modest fee for it (and media cost needs to be tiny compared to services rendered), and large enough to hold meaningful amounts of data.
I'd interpret that as something that could write data at a rate of at LEAST half that of the recording media, ideally faster than realtime, 50+GB in capacity, not too physically large, inexpensive/ubiquitous readers, a long shelf life, and cost in the $30-$100/hr range or less.
Then again, you can get hard drives for about $0.50/GB. 4K RAW compressed is about 100GB/hr...so a bare hard drive is about $50/hr. Hard drives do fail....from sustained use. Their lifespan is MUCH longer if you just stick them on a shelf, turned off and unused, and don't use them except to pull data. And a Mac Pro has 3 empty slots, you could just socket it in with a power cyle for ghetto cheap access. Or buy a cheap SATA card and hot swap enclosure...or if they client lacks all that, I have a cheap $30 gadget that lets me hook up a bare drive and copy over USB 2 (sloooooooow on Macs, but it works).
While it is great that you can get 3+ hrs of 4K@24p on a 320GB Red Drive...when those get old, they'll suddenly fail, and lose all data on them unless they have some kind of known lifespan or means of establishing viability other than a "Thar She Blows!" indicator of total failure. I could so older and/or abused rental units failing in the field...and unscrupulous rental facilities just reformatting them and sending them back out, hoping they won't fail again...all things to worry about and deal with in the future.
Results 41 to 50 of 59
12-14-2006 09:40 PM
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- Dec 2005
Last edited by MikeCurtis; 12-14-2006 at 10:31 PM.
12-14-2006 10:31 PM
My plan is simply to shoot on the REDDRIVE, archive it to a standard, new SATA 3.5" HDD (320GB models exist and are quite cheap) and give that drive to the client at the end of each day. The cost of the drive is factored into the cost of the hire and they will know what format they will be getting the data on BEFORE I hire my services to them. Additionally (depending on RedCine and its free/cost status) they will get a copy of RedCine to use with their footage OR we will have arranged to process the footage for them (additional cost) into the format they wish to edit with and put that on the drive as well.
For my own projects I'll simply be buying standard HDDs to archive the day's footage on and then ingest the used takes onto my main system project drive until completed. The archive HDD then goes on the shelf not to be touched again unless needed to pull the original footage again for some reason.
Seems a pretty simple solution to me but that is based mostly on a cinema type workflow (my main target).Paul Leeming
Director, Cinematographer, Stereographer
Golden Gate 3D
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Building Two, Treasure Island
San Francisco CA 94130
Office: +1 (415) 779-4433
My work: www.visceralpsyche.com
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12-15-2006 01:06 AMOriginally Posted by MikeCurtis
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- May 2006
It seems to me that with pretty much any workflow which requires your footage to pass though a computer, you're ahead of the game if you're using a file-based workflow rather than a tape-based workflow, for rather obvious reasons; you've knocked the whole ingesting step out of the workflow. You've either replaced it with a better-than real-time copy operation, or if speed is really essential and you don't mind living a bit dangerously, you've eliminated it completely (you can just edit straight off the digital mag and worry about backups later).
Now, clearly if your footage is going into a pipeline designed around tape and it has to be turned over immediately, you don't really have any option other than shooting straight to tape, but while this isn't unheard of, it also probably isn't very common when you look at the range of jobs for which it's reasonable to use a camera like RED, which is, after all, not exactly optimized for ENG in general.
And, of course, there's nothing stopping you from hooking RED up to an external deck if that's really what you need.
(RED guys, if you really want to drive Sony up a wall, do some reverse engineering and make a portable HDCAM-SR recorder for for $10K. Though, I think you'd probably rather focus on the tapeless future.)
Originally Posted by MikeCurtis
It's never possible to eliminate all risk. The MTBF of modern hard drive mechanisms can be upwards of a million hours. That's 114 years, for those of you following along at home. Now, clearly not every drive makes it this long (in fact, that MTBF figure means 50% of them don't), and having two drives in a RAID 0 setup cuts your reliability in half... but even so, I wouldn't be at all surprised if, when you ran the numbers, disk-based recording came out to be more reliable than tape or film recording, both of which are fraught with their own hazards.RED #404, Zoom #211
12-15-2006 10:56 AM
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
Chris - a very well reasoned argument. I COMPLETELY agree about simpler workflow in post - and as a post guy, I'm all for IT centric. I was specificly addressing issues of production in the field when it needs to go to client.
But even with IT workflow, ingest is cake, conversion fairly straightforward, and the resolution and format options Redcine offers gets more and more valuable the further up the production budget chain you go - EFP/ENG/EPK productions may feel it a slowdown/hassle, but the film folks will love it for their offline/online stuff. And the primary intended market is narrative style productions AFAIK.
Oops, back on topic - but the backup process will be the complicating factor - can't put that XDCAM HD cart or videotape on a shelf as an easy master. The separation of source acquisition DATA from source acquisition MEDIA is the challenge here, and breaks many longstanding traditions of good workflow. Gotta switch gears and go into IT mode, with full paranoia about data integrity the way financial institutions do (but with exponentially more data to wrangle!).
I guess it is most akin to shooting one format and the client wants another - dubbing can be a hassle. Delivering another format, on another piece of media, in less than 3x running time conversion, may well be a challenge.
In my own experience, and what I hear around the web, is that SMART is a "Thar She Blows!" indicator, or sometimes even "Thar She Just Blew!" - not enough warning in advance. Manufacturer's MTBF doesn't seem to connect to my real world experience of 2.5" drives in external devices (laptops) that get toted around the beyond-the-desk world and get dinged around a bit - I've had 3 or 4 friends have their laptop drives die catastrophically with minimal warning in the last year, all on laptops less than 2 years old.
These things do NOT live as long in devices that travel, that seems clear to me from anecdotal evidence. If it sits on a desk and doesn't move? MUCH longer...but that is not the experience these drives will have.
RAID does double the risks, so halves the expected reliable lifetime.
I think having an "hours run" meter on Red Drives would be a vital component.
Last edited by MikeCurtis; 12-15-2006 at 11:02 AM.
12-15-2006 11:03 AM
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- Dec 2005
...and by the way, Blogger has been misbehaving so haven't been able to post for a few days, that's why the silence on hdforindies.com....I'm a victim of their system until they get it fixed.
12-15-2006 11:15 AM
Honestly, I'd much rather use the RED-Flash for most of my shooting (narrative cinema), and as soon as it fills up, dump to an external Firewire 800 drive, verify the copying, dump to ANOTHER Firewire 800 drive as a backup, verify, and then erase the RED-Flash and start over.
Pretty much the same workflow I'd use with P2 cards on an HVX200. Fill up with 24 minutes or so, dump to disk, dump to backup, rinse and repeat.
Of course this workflow isn't ideal for ENG/EFP situations, but for narrative features it's perfect... and no hard drive failures to worry about.
12-16-2006 06:08 AM
Continuing my LTO-3 option, I'd like to remember an idea:
Slating digital footage:
That's what I need:
Something I can use to name the project, 3-8 letters, something pretty straightforward, I don't mind scrolling through the alphabet, just like you did when you got a best score in asteroids. You're only going to to that once a day, maybe less, anyway...
Next I want two numbers to configure, I can scroll them too:
Scene and Shot numbers.
And finally, the Take number.
So in the display, I can see something like this (PS: Loved that the camera has a TC display, so we can leave the monitor/EVF free!):
DVXUSER 002.001 01
For a project I named DVXUSER (Just a nickname, of course, not the full project name) Scene 002, Shot 001 Take 01. The time couter is at zero because I didn't run camera.
I want to have three physical buttons I can press. One to change the scene, one to change the shot, and one to confirm, a set button. I would not want to enter a menu everytime there is a scene change. Sure, for dramatic work, what's the deal... But when you're doing docs, having a quick way to keep organized is essential!
If I press the scene button once, the scene number advances one position and starts blinking, like setting up a clock. I can either press enter and leave it one scene ahead, or I can jog and scroll to the number I want. So If I'm running/guning, and see something that I want to tag quickly, I just press scene-enter and I'm in a new scene.
Same deal with shot numbers.
And take numbers automatically go up everytime I cut camera.
That leaves one problem, and that is: what if I accidentally change a scene and want to go back to take 4, instead of shooting take one again? I go to a menu, as punishment for my mistake and worthless being.
When I capture the files, it would be reasonable to expect the files are named accordingly, so For project DVXUSER, I'll find a bin with the files:
And so on.
The main thing is: we have lens controls manually on the lenses. We have decided about format options, camera speed, and shutter speed. We already set our camera LUT so things look pleasant on the client's monitor. And now I'm operating camera for the shot, I want a menu-free life.
I hope I make sense, and I hope other people feel the same way, because I think slating digitally acquired material correctly is absolutely essential, and I just plainly hate menus. Having the information display outside the monitor is a great, necessary idea, so the assistant can check without disturbing the operator. Good job on that!
From my experience as an assistant. Working with Prosumer video cameras in High profile dramatic pieces, "in-set menu navigating" is one of the most terrible experiences one can suffer...
All and all... Here're some pennies...
Thanks for tuning in!
DVXUSER_002.001_01 - JARRED CU LOOKING THROUGH GLASS - WEIRD REFLECTION - Zoom, aperture and focus (not electronic, unfortunately, would have to be updated manually) - 24fps - 1/48s - And on set LUT info.
DVXUSER_002.001_02 - JARRED CU LOOKING THROUGH GLASS - GOOD - Zoom, aperture and focus (not electronic, unfortunately, would have to be updated manually) - 24fps - 1/48s - And on set LUT info.
DVXUSER_002.001_03 - JARRED CU LOOKING THROUGH GLASS - BEST - Zoom, aperture and focus (not electronic, unfortunately, would have to be updated manually) - 24fps - 1/48s - And on set LUT info.
And so on. Sure, leaving the system open to a future upgrade where electronic lenses would already give us focus, zoom, and aperture info.
That could be made to work in redcine, so our first ass editor can organize the footage as he is backing up.
Why? Because it helps agilize the editorial process, and since we still haven't really processed our footage with redcine, it could already give us clues to stuff we don't want to mess with anymore (like most bad takes) and save some time.
12-16-2006 12:45 PM
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
I had similar experiences to Mike doing digital pre-press in the mid 90s. Getting drives back from clients in a timely manner is not something you want to count on. My clients are used to being billed for tape stock so my theory is that I will just bill them for FW800 drives, capacity as needed. The bummer will be that running the formatted material out of RedCine via FW800 will be slow. I figure on rotating RedDrives throughout the day, even if they are not full, so I can have the dubbing process ongoing.
Obviously the real world speed of RedCine is an issue in this workflow. I figure I will throw one of the new Mac towers at it. Perhaps it will have an external eSATA port for a faster pipe option???
Blair S. Paulsen
12-16-2006 01:44 PMOriginally Posted by alacritymediaRED #404, Zoom #211
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- May 2006
12-18-2006 02:52 PM
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- Oct 2006
I am looking at the transfer speed of the post RedCine data stream which will be more demanding than just copying off the RedDrive. My design target is based on what output format from RedCine I expect clients to request. The goal is to have a system that can crank out that processed footage in a reasonable amount of time. I am postulating that 4:4:4 10 bit, 24p/1080 will be the most likely format - essentially +/- HDCAM-SR level. I am figuring that the time to create and send out this format will depend on how fast RedCine can process a one-light and the transfer speed to the client drive(s).
Are the rest of you thinking that the typical gun for hire client will just want the RedCode RAW? I am operating under the assumption that they will specify a particular format that their Post house/NLE prefers.
Blair S. Paulsen