A few comments about workflow using REDCINE.

[MikeCurtis]

...and Stu (M, not Stuart) - depends - if you can kick out of Redcine in a 10 bit 4:4:4 log QT codec, is that good enough for you?

Often, but not all the time, knowing your expectations.

How does one conform FCP to DPX files anyway?

[glenn chan]

Time Changes:

In my opinion, a good way to handle time changes/remapping is this:

In the EDL, the program outputting the EDL should reference the in and out points of the source material it is using.

When Redcine gets this EDL, it should process all of those frames.
Red outputs an EDL indicating the source reel timecodes (these should stay the same) as well as the timecodes that correspond to where the clip goes in the project. The project timecodes should have a shorter/greater length than the source reel timecodes. This will indicate to the online system that there is a speed change.

An online assistant should conform the project to apply a speed ramp if necessary.

2- When you record 60fps or 120fps on Red, the timecode should be 1:1 with the recorded frames, and not with respect to time. With each frame having a unique timecode, you don't run into EDL issues. (Right?)

3- In my opinion, XML is not that good of an idea (at least Apple's implementation). It's non-standard and doesn't clearly work better than EDLs in the case of Final Touch HD.

4- My question is, how will you get Red footage into an online system if the online system only accepts (HD-)SDI in?

[boothba]

4- My question is, how will you get Red footage into an online system if the online system only accepts (HD-)SDI in?

Good question. I've never conformed from image sequences before. Eye-matched, yes. Conformed, no. I wonder if OMF files would work.

I suppose a backup plan is to assemble the online media in REDCINE (using RED PULL LIST) and export it as tiff image sequences with 10 frame handles. Import and manually re-assemble in one-line box (smoke, fire, flame, IQ, scratch, whatever...)

[im.thatoneguy]

Thanks mike, if there's one application on earth that I've been imagining over the years it's what I just described. Every project gets a new imaginary feature. ;)

I don't think time stretch is an issue. I'm not sure how it's flagged in an EDL, but the online editor is going to do the stretch anyway. So if they stretch frames: 20 - 40 by 100%.

REDCine looks at the EDL says: "What the editor is going to need is frames 20-40." Then when it gets loaded into combustion, smoke or fusion, the application takes frames 20-40 and stretches them 100%. That means you won't be getting your Avid of FCP software stretch, but your online editor/compositing application probably has even better algorithms anyway.

Or! hehehehe... REDCine exports a 20-40 frame time sequence. It creates a shake script using its super nice motion flow based retiming software and then directs the EDL to the nice shake rendered version.

All of that *could* theoretically be done since Shake, Combustion, or Fusion all can use command line rendererers. It would be up to the user though to program the 'script', with a few variables to let REDCine know where it needs to insert key data like "Input source" "Output destination" "Start and End Frames". It would then customize the shake script and execute a new batch file.

[MikeCurtis]

Gavin - time changes - it SHOULD work, just that in my experience it often doesn't, durn it. Yeah, it should be done in Shake, but not always the case.

To the guy that says the online assistant does the changes...depends on the scale of the project - I spent 6 months working in a color correction business, and found that LOTS of FCP editors time ramp all the time to fit to fill, and MOST indie projects don't have a budget ready to handle THAT much direct, hands-on, billable time type of work.

It really needs to be automated.

I like the scripting idea Gavin to hand it off. Some custom scripting goodies that others can hook into? I think that'd be the way to go.

Yo Graeme! The Mac version will have Automator hooks in it, RIGHT?

-mike

[Nick_Shaw]

Time changes in FCP and as I remember in Media 100 (don't know about Avid, as I've only ever offlined in Avid – never conformed an online) have always been flaky. Even consolidating a project using media manager in FCP can give unexpected results if a timeline contains speed changes, or even freeze frames.

I've often found it useful to put un time-remapped copies of a source clip (containing all the necessary frames) on the end of the offline timeline, so that they get conformed 'clean' and then the time re-map can be re-built manually if necessary.

Nick

[alacritymedia]

I like Nick's workaround of putting time stable segments on the tail of the offline that cover the same frames as the time altered footage so that the conform pulls them. The rebuilding step could be a bitch in a larger shop where tasks are parceled out to a larger team but a short white paper on the steps should cover it. BTW - learning that one trick justifies the time I spent on this forum this morning, I tip my hat to you good sir. That said...

Coming from a Mac perspective I want to beg Apple to put some of the most powerful pieces of Shake right into the next release of FCS so that I can access them right on the FCP timeline - starting with a killer time remapping module. If it's too difficult to plant it inside FCP at least make it easy to jump in and out of it ala Motion. Now about Final Touch...

In any case, a solid automated solution for conforming time altered footage is overdue. At this point in the development of the NLE space the idea that this would require a manual workaround is ludicrous. If the EDL includes the data describing the time remap then it should know enough to add the necessary handles. This is all data, its all on computers, the user should not have to deal with this. If FCS 6 doesn't fix this I will shop other solutions, and I don't think I will be the only one. Maybe you PC folks will finally get me.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19

[im.thatoneguy]

Well theoretically an AAF/MXF workflow should solve any sync issues in the future. If I could get my fusion OMF support working with AVID at all, I could test time ramps, but I know that Automatic Duck and Avid work with time-remapping no sweat inside of Combustion so it *should* work as long as REDCine just exports the necessary frames.

I really don't want REDCine doing my time ramps natively, but I probably have nothing to fear since I doubt that's even on the the table for Graeme.