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    #11
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    Another fun, simple benifit of this concept is the ability to digitally slide ND gradient like filters in behind your primary subjects/actors and control the background exposures in post practically instantly and with little post experience. Just set your transparency, gradient, and z-distance, and even the most post-phobic cameramen can get much better, virtually instant control over exposure (assuming large amounts of the shot aren't clipped out of course) with little effort.

    If you were to film with a large DoF, the opportunities for digital depth of field effects become to many to mention.

    I would imagine the best way to accomplish this would be to create an enhanced CCD with a 4th channel to recieve whatever kind of ranging light was being flooded across the sceen on a per pixel level, like the white paper suggests is possible. Luckily, it sounds like the Red's CCD is "upgradable", so maybe it could be in the future for Red One after all?


     

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    #12
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    Think again guys.

    This isnt possible right now. You can grab bits and bobs of 3d information in realtime but nothing suitable for the types of effects you guys are talking about.

    If you were to gather 3d data via lidar or such, this information is best handled in post production, not in camera.

    If this were possible today, it could be in standalone devices, its really not camera dependent. The $200 million dollar movies painstakingly recreate the 3d environments and reverse triangulate camera position data in post production not because they have fun doing it that way but because thats the only way to currently do it. Is also not an automatic process. It would be one thing if this were all achievable in real time by putting a couple quad core intel chips in RED but its not just about horse power. There is all sorts of user interaction which is why VFX studios have entire divisions devoted to camera tracking.
    Of all the processes that would be required to achieve a system being discussed, optical flow is the most automated and even then requires alot of very finely articulated masks to explain to the algorithm which pixels belong to which planes in 3d space.
    Also oflow is extremely processor intensive and on a 4k plate would need some mega mega processing power to handle it in real time.

    I work in VFX so Im just offering my professional insight. It's a nice idea in theory but not practical today.


     

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    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emery Wells
    If this were possible today, it could be in standalone devices, its really not camera dependent. The $200 million dollar movies painstakingly recreate the 3d environments and reverse triangulate camera position data in post production not because they have fun doing it that way but because thats the only way to currently do it.
    If that's the logic you want to follow then I suppose Jim Jannard should just give up on the Red and its Mysterium sensor then, since Sony already makes a $200,000 camera thats the only way to currently do it.

    The key to this whole idea is that it's NOT a stand-alone device, go check out the white paper in the original post...it's CCD based ranging, which would result in a perfect match of the matte to the color channels, something not possible with ANY other technology. That aspect greatly cheapens the process. What you would need is a specialized light emitter that pulses energy in a form that a modified CCD with a 4th channel can pick up. That light is reflected from objects in the scene, returning to the CCD, which records the minute timing differences of the light return and translates that into a grayscale color. Result, depth map at the same resolution of the recorded color images with no offset.

    A full-fledged Hollywood movie production may still want to scan in an entire set and make a 3D model to track and manipulate, but that's not what this idea is about. It's about a simple, 2D depth map resulting in streamlined Post process for those of us without a post house.

    That's really the beauty of this whole discussion though, Red is something entirely revolutionary that no one thought possible, let alone thought could be produced for less than several hundred thousand dollars a unit. Mr. Jannard has shattered the cost-to-quality ratio in a way none of us saw coming. We're just now seeing decent midrange HD cameras on the market and now we have a 4K option for a moderate cost increase? It's unreal. We'd be cheating ourselves not to explore every angle of each possiblity on this board...if even one of them becomes reality, then WE win. Slapping assumed limits on technology is a good way to go out of business...a long standing truth that Mr. Jannard is now bringing hard and fast to the doors of the major camera manufacturers....why not join the fun and think big and expensive, then we can all hope it comes out even cooler and cheaper than we hoped, like Red One.


     

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    #14
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    Ok Im guilty of not reading the white paper before posting and only skimming the the posts... Im at work guys, can't blame me.

    Im certainly a proponent of new technologies and economizing old traditional expensive ones. I was commenting more on the ability of getting real time 3D position data as opposed to simple depth map (which i now see is what the post is about.)

    Range finding CCD's is an interesting concept. If the boys want to slap it in there I'd be a happy compositor.


     

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    #15
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    Maybe a more sophisticated technology can implement similar or better results. Manufacturers? Anyone out there?

    This would be an excellent combo with Red. I can also forsee this being used in 3d Camera animation work for match-ups in animation compositing


     

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    #16
    Senior Member omen's Avatar
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    One of the greatest ideas. Too bad I acted too late........


     

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    #17
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    or this was a blabla contest and didn't i notice?..
    it was an idea contest -- so i guess you dident notice (although seeing as the title was Think Tank im rather suprised you dident)

    id be intrested to know what jannard or any of the red employees have to say about this little ditty of an idea.


     

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    #18
    President/Founder Jarred Land's Avatar
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    They loved the ideas.. Both Jim and Ted were very impressed with some of the suggestions. Ted was the one that read all the ideas and chose the winner remember.... Hes been a little quiet the last couple weeks cause they are elbows deep in engineering the camera... I will see if I can get Ted to break away tonight and chime in if he has the opportunity.
    .


     

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    #19
    Member KarlSoule's Avatar
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    There was a device at IBC a few years ago that offered a Z-buffer with realtime depth information. The name of the company was Zcam, and they were based in Israel. They did a fantastic demo involving virtual objects on stage that the presenter could walk around, and they showed color effects based on distance from the camera, ie someone in black and white stepping forward into a world of color. They also showed keying based on depth.

    This was in '99. The price was huge - over $100,000 for the add-on to the Sony camera, and it was a huge studio rig.

    If you guys make this practical, it'll be huge.
    Last edited by KarlSoule; 07-08-2006 at 06:42 PM.


     

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    #20
    President/Founder Jarred Land's Avatar
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    i dont expect this to show up on any of the first 3 generations of the Red camera.. the concept is what was great.

    to bad though that Zcam bailed.. that woulda made alot of comp guys dreams come true.
    .


     

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