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    Senior Member
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    @TomRoper No it s a fact, you can't choose your real name. You choose a pseudonym.
    Peter Bosman
     

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    Senior Member JPNola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Sewell View Post
    Real names and reputations matter. In a similar vein, I tell my children never to believe anything they see, hear or read about current events on any media unless it's being said, written or shown by someone whose career will be ruined should they be found to be lying.
    Noble, I suppose. But is it wise?


    http://https://thecybersafetylady.co...-the-internet/
    Big sources matter.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    Link correction: https://thecybersafetylady.com.au/20...-the-internet/
     

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    Senior Member Mike Krumlauf's Avatar
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    I feel like DVXuser has "jumped the shark" a few times since its beginning in the early 2000s. I remember back then it was made solely for owners of the Panasonic AG-DVX100 by Jarred Land. I was in my early teens then, still fairly fresh to the filmmaking scene... then slowly DVXuser opened up to other DV/HDV cameras, then HDSLRs when the 5D MK2 came out, then before I knew it, it was just a general fourm divided into sub forms for specific digital cameras, etc, etc. So in a way, its just mutating again I guess due to Covid, who knows, all im saying is the initial shark jumping happened well over a decade ago.
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    Rockin the Boat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Scott View Post
    [...]Nothing in here AT ALL about the subject of the forum, about the craft, about learning.
    Um, I wasnít looking for enemies, just making an argument for not having a real-names-only policy... IN FACT a subject of the thread, and a policy proposal by multiple posters about how the site ought to be reformed - or did you not notice, LOL?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Scott View Post
    It's all about arguing, the strength of an argument and 'let me tell you what's what' and 'I will call you out' yadda yadda yadda. Mix in a bit of jingoism and a pinch of worrying about 'The Man' and frankly it represents all the things I like to avoid on here. I'm just here for the production talk.
    Well, bully for you. Others are here for a lot of other subforums, not just production talk - is it OK if they use those parts of dvxuser or should we only keep those sections that youíre ďthere forĒ? Iíve been here since 2006. Iíve certainly participated in production, camera, and other technical forums, but thatís not my primary interest. Iím more interested and have participated in the content creation aspect of screenplay, acting, direction and so on, as well as discussing actual content, whether by dvxusers or general reviews of films/TV. You want to discuss production only - fine, you donít see me telling you ďyouíre doing it wrongĒ. Can we who have other areas of interest as well get the same courtesy from you? Thank you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Scott View Post
    Also though set up in the US, this is clearly a global site with members from every continent. I could not care less about your discussion of the 5th Amendment when I want to talk about the flange distances and lens mounts.
    Good for you! Is anyone stopping you from discussing flange distances? Do you see me jumping in with my ďnot real nameĒ and preventing anyone from discussing any issue at all? But is it OK if we discuss topics of interest to other posters who freely post here, and can we reference the 5th amendment if we see it as relevant, or should we only be allowed to discuss flange distances and topics of interest to you? Yes, itís an international forum, and part of that is the U.S., too - is that OK by you? Because I personally have no problem reading - and in fact I have posted - about European production, and content from any part of the world. So, I donít see why something that references U.S. issues should be verboten.

    Donít like a subject? Donít participate in that thread or forum, problem solved! But donít tell anyone else what forum theyíre allowed to post and on what subject - after all, nobody is telling you that. Show the same courtesy to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Scott View Post
    In fact taking your previous invitation to look at your older posts to get the measure of a person I could not find one single post about production, about cameras, about workflow or techniques.
    I canít help your inability to conduct proper searches. I have close to 3000 posts here. I can assure you, I have many, many technically oriented posts (especially sound) - if I link to some of those posts, what will you say to justify the fact that your research appears to be lacking and not able to match your negative claims? But again, there are many subforums on dvxuser and I have greater interest in screenplay, acting, content creation and critique. I post a lot on those topics. Even if I didnít make a single post outside of those areas of interest, Iíd still feel I have made a contribution to dvxuser - even if not in your eyes... but then again, I donít live for your approval, so please take ďthe measure of meĒ in any way you wish, and we donít need to interact ever

    There are many subforums here. Itís OK to only post in a few. Itís OK to have primary areas of interest. Itís OK to have yours and not attack others for having differnt interests. Itís OK to live and let live, that way everyone gets to live.

    And for those who wish to use their real names, because they think itís excellent marketing or any other reason - great, you can do it already! But why insist that everyone else share your preferences and impose those on everyone else? I donít propose to impose ďaliases onlyĒ policy, so how about you do you, and Iíll do me, thanks!

    Regarding the proposal from Liam, to limit the posting rights of those who donít use their real names, or create forums that only allow real names. Iím not opposed to it in principle, but I donít think itís especially practical or beneficial to the growth, retention or to the benefit of dvxuser - I do think the opposite. Now, I can think of areas where that might make sense - for example, only real names in the FOR SALE or trade sections - Ebay manages to do it with aliases, but I can see the at least some justification for a real names only policy when it comes to dealing with gear or services for sale.

    But in a practical sense, if for example, I have no interest in a section, say Sony cameras, I just donít post there. How does a real name policy help anyone here? If one day I find myself unexpectadly working with a Sony camera, do I have to now register in my own name to ask a question on the Sony forum? Because it seems that it would prevent many people from asking questions and participation on such a forum would be lower and not necessarily better.

    And maybe knowing that someone is a DP - with a real name and CV - is comforting when participating on a forum, and so ďreal names onlyĒ. Iím not a DP, I donít make that a secret, LOL, why would I? So you know that going in. I have not come across a case yet, where someone says ďI know, because Iím a DP, so listen to me (but actually Iím lying and not a DP)Ē. But, newsflash - people who are not DPs regularly make decisions about hiring a DP and they evaluate DP work - I have certainly done so in my capacity as a producer. Directors do too. Often we look at a DPís work from a completely different perspective. It seems to me that such voices can be of interest. To restrict participation in such a forum, does not seem to me to lead to more participation from more people, but maybe Iím wrong.

    Anyhow, Iím certainly not opposed to the creation of ďreal name onlyĒ forums, as per Liamís proposal, even if I donít think theyíre beneficial or practical in the long term. But I also think we should have forums where those who do not wish to use their real names can participate. Hey, we could even create alternate forums ďSONY cameras forum - real names onlyĒ ďSONY cameras forum - all names welcomeĒ. Soon you can duplicate the site into dvxuserALLNAMES and dvxuserREALNAMES - not practical, but then again, thatís the logical end of where that goes... again, not practical in my view, but you do you.

    Meanwhile, I think the TOS is fine - keeping politics and religion out of dvxuser is not easy, and complicated, but ultimately the right thing to do. The only thing I think is unnecessary within the TOS is the ďno negativityĒ rule, as thatís completely arbitrary and restrictive and limiting. YMMV.
     

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    Senior Member Ben Scott's Avatar
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    I don't care mate. I'm happy for you to 'win'.

    As I previously stated I will confine myself to my one little thread I made from now on because there is a very strong feeling that the lunatics have taken over the asylum and if it creeps in there too I will happily flounce off into the sunset.
    ----------------------------------------------------------


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    Senior Member JPNola's Avatar
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    Maybe “This place is full of lunatics” Ben and “use real names!” Ben should have a talk.
    Big sources matter.
     

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    Rockin the Boat
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    How to increase diversity? People make all sorts of claims, but provide little evidence. I’d like to try to provide evidence.

    The way to increase diversity is to make the site an alias only site - no real names. However, failing that, to leave the option of aliases. Evidence? Yep, we have excellent data in that respect.

    When orchestras hire musicians, they audition them. It used to be that a panel would listen to someone play an instrument and the musician would do it right in front of them. The result was very little diversity for decades. Then, they switched to having the musician play behind a screen. Wouldn’t you know! The diversity skyrocketed! All of a sudden f.ex. women started getting hired and that changed auditions forever. Women musicians used to be a rarity in orchestras, but since the blind auditions started, the numbers of women soared - today, for example, fully half of all musicians in the New York Philharmonic are women. It was so successful that orchestras have now fully saturated with “interested” musicians and now to increase diversity further along minority axis they’re even thinking of simply doing a quota system and dispensing with blind auditions in such cases! But the point stands - blind auditions revolutionized the ranks of women in the ranks. Is it the *only* solution, of course not, and as we’ve seen in the quota system, sometimes blind auditions are not the only answer.

    It remains a fact, that a woman or POC may feel more comfortable interacting anonymously and without the pressure of possible bias on sites like dvxuser. Because bias can be totally unconscious.

    The reality is not that the panels were necessarily racist or misogynist. There is such a thing as unconscious bias, which you may simply not be aware of, despite your best efforts.

    This is why it’s such a pernicious suggestion that you can only evaluate what someone says by knowing who it is who says it. The opposite is true, and we’ve known this for centuries, hence the saying “don’t judge a book by its cover”. We all have unconscious biases and therefore *who* says something in fact influences us away from objectivity - it would be much better to *not* know who says what, and evaluating what they say from behind a screen, like in the orchestra example.

    But this is not my only “evidence”, it’s just a very striking example. Because the evidence has been all around us for a very long time: this is such a well-known fact, that institutions have made extensive efforts to anonymize tests, essays and other evaluative techniques, to increase diversity and access the best candidate for a job. If we only ever did face to face interviews, we’d end up with little diversity - which is why there is such an emphasis on anonymizing whether admissions, or job applications, or best product ideas or whatnot. if you want to eliminate bias - anonymize.

    So people who want to “take the measure” of someone by learning of their identity are asking that they bring in bias into their interaction - unconscious bias, which they are unable to compensate for. I strive to do the opposite. I strive to remove the impact of any bias I may have - and we all have it, and we can’t compensate for it - by among others, removing the identity from the equation. I don’t want to judge the argument by who makes it, a book by its cover. Just concentrate on the content of the book, not what wraps it, and on the content of the line of reasoning and not who makes it. When you know a person X makes an observation, your unconscious mind takes into account the context of all the supposed - and sometimes real - characteristics, and it subtly pushes you to evaluate that observation and it ends up hurting your judgment. And even if you are *right* about a particular fact you may still miss out - example, it’s a bit of a cliche, which happens to be factual insofar as it’s reflected by statistics, that DP’s generally make poor directors and if you look at the number of successful directors from the ranks of writers and editors, versus DP’s that is very true. So if you are evaluating an idea, knowing that it was made by a DP can unconciously bias you against it and push you to reject it, rather than give it a more dispassionate look, and you could miss out in the more rare case of good directors who came for the ranks of DPs.

    This btw. is a win for all. Not only will the anonymous person - perhaps a celebrity who doesn’t want their identity to influence their interactions - be free to join and participate (or woman, or minority, or whoever), but it is a huge win for those who have biases. Because now, free from the bias associated with identity X, I can be exposed to an interesting point of view I might not have had the ability to see before, blinded as I was by my biases. Diversity is a strength not just because of moral reasons, but because it brings in other perspectives and life experiences. So hurray for anonymity and the freedom and diversity and enrichment it brings!

    Or we can go to a model of identity politics or “who says what”, and prejudice and confirmation bias and not listening because our biases have made up our minds and it’ll look like those stifling samey boardrooms.

    You want diversity? You want integrity of argument? You want unbiased interactions? Then you want anonymity. The wisest thing we could do would be to mandate dvxusers to all use aliases. However, I’m the live and let live type of guy, so I’m OK with everyone choosing for themselves how they want to present themselves. TOS still applies.
     

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    Sounds so wonderful except for the face that the historical evidence of this very forum does not prove it out.

    Diversity is one issue. Respect and accountability are others. There are several issues that many have with this forum. No one solution is perfect but you go with what can help the most.
    Mitch Gross
    NYC
     

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    self edit
    Last edited by Mitch Gross; 03-07-2021 at 01:32 PM.
    Mitch Gross
    NYC
     

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