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    #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    I did two corporate jobs this week. The crew for both included a Sound-Op.
    I got that beat. I married mine. She's dropped out of the business now but it was very convenient for many years.
    Now that I think about it, maybe that was the best ROI of anything I bought.


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    #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    it's been years since any shoot I've been hired on had a separate person to do sound.

    You need better clients.

    I also do corporate video and it is rare for any of my corporate clients to not want to pay for a Sound-Op.

    I did two corporate jobs this week. The crew for both included a Sound-Op.
    Cheers to you JP - especially during Covid - that isn't my experience at all. Though I don't disagree on needing better clients...it's a constant battle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    I got that beat. I married mine. She's dropped out of the business now but it was very convenient for many years.
    Now that I think about it, maybe that was the best ROI of anything I bought.
    Doug - you purchased your wife? How much did she cost?


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    #23
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    I got that beat. I married mine. She's dropped out of the business now but it was very convenient for many years.
    Now that I think about it, maybe that was the best ROI of anything I bought.
    That could have easily gone the other way. One of my friends that I shoot with got divorced a few years ago. His now ex also works in the business(on-air talent)(how they met). She is still working bringing in six-figures a year and managed to take him to the cleaners for close to $2M, I believe.


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    #24
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    Wait...you had a shooter friend who had amassed $2M to get taken away from him? I'm such a failure....


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    #25
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captslomo View Post
    Wait...you had a shooter friend who had amassed $2M to get taken away from him? I'm such a failure....
    He was raking in the network money(when they actually used to spend it) since probably the late 80’s.


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    #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    He was raking in the network money(when they actually used to spend it) since probably the late 80’s.
    Yep, late 80's through 90's.
    Things were so good back then my house looked like an exotic car dealership.


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    #27
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David W. Jones View Post
    Yep, late 80's through 90's.
    Things were so good back then my house looked like an exotic car dealership.
    Yeah, I’d settle for having to shoot tape again and have nothing but “hot lights” to go back to the “good ‘ole days”. When I first got in, the network news level was still what a lot of people aspired to get to, but it wasn’t long before it started to peter out.

    Another old news dog I know had his on plane(it was a prop, but still...) until fairly recently. He had an office and residence ‘up north’ and down here. He was also in the DGA. One of his network clients wanted him in charge of this particular shoot years(and years) ago, but you had to be a director (Union rules?) for whatever this high-level shoot was, so they pulled strings and got him in the DGA. This was also around the same time when guys would go out on big news stories and be gone for weeks and come back with checks that could buy new BMW’s, because of the insane OT(Golden Time!) and penalties(like missed meals and short turn-arounds) that would rack-up.


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    #28
    Senior Member puredrifting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    Why would I expect to charge extra? No big deal and I don't need to charge extra.

    Why grab the client's balls and try to make them pay extra? It is short sighted and a poor way to build a successful business.
    Everyone wins when you can pull a trick out of the bag that basically costs you nothing to provide.
    "Costs you nothing to provide"

    Doug, not sure if you read the part where I said this was a live stream we were producing from out of state and I had a camera op in Las Vegas hired?
    The local Vegas production company was going to bring out a prompter op and prompter system last minute. It would have cost
    US, the live streaming production company $700-800. No way we're eating that because the client wanted to cheap out. The talent expected and asked
    for a prompter early on and the client flat our refused to pay for one. Why would we eat $800.00 because the client was cheap and short sighted? Would you have?
    It's a business first and a creative outlet second.
    G.A.S. destroys lives. Stop buying gear that doesn't make you money.


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    #29
    Senior Member puredrifting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    it's been years since any shoot I've been hired on had a separate person to do sound.

    You need better clients.

    I also do corporate video and it is rare for any of my corporate clients to not want to pay for a Sound-Op.

    I did two corporate jobs this week. The crew for both included a Sound-Op.
    100% agreed. The producer who sells the job (many of you in most cases), it's their job to set and manage expectations and to build the value case for what they provide. If you are taking jobs for only "what the client wants to pay", you are not a good salesperson or
    or producer. You're an order taker and probably not a very successful one. I won't go down the rabbit hole of discussing how to be a good salesperson but I've been one, or a sales manager or store manager, team leader, educator, writer most of my adult life. Successfully
    selling takes building instant rapport, establishing credibility and delving quickly and deeply into what the client's actual needs are. It's not ALWAYS to cheap out. Most of that is a "lack of knowledge smokescreen" by your client.

    Most of the clients who hire many of us are clueless about what production is, how it works, why they should hire production company or OMB A over B, etc. so they default to hiring "whoever is cheapest".
    Every potential client is an opportunity to educate them and make your case why they wouldn't be making a good business decision by NOT hiring you. I like working with clients who actually know at least a little about production.
    Then they KNOW why they need to pay for a sound mixer, hair & makeup, a PA, a gaffer when I tell them we need this person/position. I am truly always looking out for my client's best interest and almost all of the time
    when we hire these positions we don't have on staff, there is little to no markup in that position's rate in my budget proposal. Because I'm not hiring a sound mixer to make more money, I'm hiring them so as to decrease the chances of the shoot failing because of audio problems/issues.
    I don't hire sound mixers for a single camera/single subject interview. But two/three talent or more, wireless, managing a lot of audio things happening, heck yes, the client is hiring a sound mixer, why would I want to compromise my ability to do my job well as producer/director/DP just
    because I have a lot of audio gear and actually can do a pretty good job of location sound mixing?

    I don't buy into the race to the bottom. Most of those kinds of clients who expect a OMB to do 3-4 people's position's well for a fraction of the money, those are the clients I am trying to NOT work with anymore. There are no winners in the race to the bottom.
    If you want to succeed in this or any other business, you must be in control of the situations you are hired for. This gets into that collaborator issue. If you want to be a camera monkey who is soley hired for their camera and lighting,
    you're never going to compete with the other camera monkeys in the race to the bottom. It's a losing race. I pretty much only like to work with collaborators as clients. If someone wants a commodity hire, I usually refer them to
    other people I know who work that way because why do I want to compete with the bottom feeders of our business? What's the point?
    It's a business first and a creative outlet second.
    G.A.S. destroys lives. Stop buying gear that doesn't make you money.


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    #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    I know you work in totally different world than I do, so your experiences and the way you need to work might be totally different than mine. But in my world of non-fiction broadcast television and high-end corporate video, the more value I can add, the better.
    To be clear Doug, I wouldn't have felt appropriate commenting on this subject if I hadn't spent time in the same trenches. I spent ten years in a smaller market shooting corporate and stringing for broadcast so I know what that world is or more specifically was, back in the day. From keeping up via boards like this I've seen how much it has changed for many involved (devolved) and I feel for everyone who has bridged that era.
    Charles Papert
    charlespapert.com


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