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    #11
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    This is post modern philosophy. In my opinion, cultural embracement of postmodernism isn't directly tied to the internet, but rather a decline in theism, and subsequent rejection of theistic objective standard. I'm not saying this with the intent to start a thread war or violate forum policy, I'm merely postulating that postmodernism filled the void that theism previously held.


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    #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    I'm in the U.S., old, and never heard of it. It's a big heaping pile of hot horse manure. What nonsense.
    Except it is all over the place in the emerging "woke" cultural environment. Ironically, never forming a critical judgement (in the scientific sense) about people and life choices avoids the reality of the consequences that may come. But the consequences do come and may even be worse because they are out of left field for the person who did not consider any consequences in the first place. I am old too, btw, (from the US) but have been "schooled" a bit on what I can fathom and it leaves me shaking my head most of the time. I wish I could wrap my mind around some of this, but it is an interesting - if odd - discussion.... :-)


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    #13
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    So when does 'you be you' become not ok? What is the boundary? Is it just thoughts or does it include behaviors? If I like to stick my behind close to your face and fart, is that cool? Is that me being me?
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    #14
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    Probably accepted behavior, except when it is not. Or grounds for a lawsuit, LOL. Could you get your friends to post so we can determine if it is just you being you? I am shaking my head again because this all hurts to think about....


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    #15
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    "You do You" is not inherently a bad thing. Everybody needs to feel comfortable in their own skin. I have always believed that internal growth and achievement leads to a better society as a whole. So I am not against the concept. The problem is that people are getting more and more bored due to all of the modern conveniences offered in our world. They have too much of a lot of things like time, discretionary income and entitlement paired with quick thinking, absolute access to knowledge and often an absence of real pressure and desire to "put in the time"... Instant gratification has taken over like how we used to wait for computer progress bars and now the whole genome happens when we hit enter.

    To pass over all of your eloquent language Filmguy, the fabric is breaking down and everybody seems to be welcoming it. What to do? I have no idea.? I just keep on trying to learn, grow, act with integrity and treat people with kindness, empathy and respect. The way others' behave is beyond my control and I might avoid. That might be my version of me doing me! In the end, that is all we can do anyway.


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    #16
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    This sounds like Relativism.

    I remember hearing about it in college, in the 1990s. There has been an uptick since at least the 1960s, but the philosophy was mentioned in the 1800s, and can be traced back to the ancient Greeks, if not before. It certainly predates the internet, but has there been more and more of it recently? I don't know. People tended to be more relativistic in cosmopolitan environments, like big cities. Now the internet makes the world one big city.

    To some extent, I can see it arising from the desire to avoid a quarrel. Instead of:

    "No, it's this."
    "No, it's that!"

    --- with Relativism, you can say:

    "You think this. I think that. Hey, maybe what is right for you isn't right for me, and vice versa."

    Certainly it is okay for certain preferences ("You like chocolate, I like vanilla.") but taken as an absolute, relativism obviously self-destructs: "It is absolutely true that there are no absolutes! Except this one. Ahhh!" POOF!


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    #17
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    This is absolutely nothing new, IMHO. Humans are, have been, and will continue to be tribalistic in nature. People freely associate into groups that match their beliefs, creeds, values, and... yes... appearance. Anybody who ever attended or has kids in a public school knows this to be true. Tribes the world over express outrage at injustice done to them, and glee or indifference at the injustice they inflict upon others. Those that are least like us are viewed as the least to be trusted and the most righteously vanquished.

    Conflict arises when one tribe tries to take over the resources of another tribe; to likely mis-quote Woody Allen, “why does man fight? He fights for food; and not only food. Frequently, there must also be a beverage.” We are bands of chimpanzees in an eternally churning border war over the tastiest grubs.

    We all tend to be extremely shortsighted. We all tend to be hypocritical. We all tend to avoid self-awareness. We often project and partake in the very atrocities we detest in others, with glorious indignation.

    Repeated attempts to unite The Tribe of Mankind by pointing out our myriad likenesses, strengths, and failings haven’t gone swimmingly. Old wounds are dredged up and used as justification to inflict pain afresh. We feign enlightenment while only demarcating a new “other” to be reviled and squashed. We hate haters for hating, who hate us in turn for our hatred, which doubles our hateful hate.

    The only controls to the swirling miasm of avaricious chaos are those instilled by eternal ideals of peace, love, joy, kindness, goodness, patience, and self-control... upon which nobody can quite agree and will thus fight you to the death to force upon one another.

    I dunno. Humanity. It’s a funny thing.

    I’d say we should maybe try living by the principles of “don’t hurt people, and don’t take their stuff,” like a real live actual “you do you” approach, but I might get a downvote or forum ban and an IRS audit and fired from my next job for such hateful extremism.
    Last edited by mcbob; 01-19-2021 at 06:19 PM.
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    #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Coughlin View Post
    I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I mean, you do you.

    As for me, I'm looking for a woman to do instead of me doing me.
    I have one you can have. Had one as of yesterday anyways. Ghandi. Woman. (No offense ladies, it's a guy-joke thing). That's funny though Eric. -Cheers.
    "Remember To Dip the Right End of the Cigar in your $250.00 dollar glass of Brandy." -Doc Bernard.


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    #19
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    I think "you do you" is appropriate when it comes to personal lifestyle choices or personal values.

    I think it's completely inappropriate when it comes to determining fact and applying logic.

    Certainly, not everything is or can be known, and some things might only be known probabilistically or with a certain degree of confidence. Which is equally important to understand.

    But the idea of subjective truth is downright dangerous. Like a pilot and co-pilot who have different ideas about what the controls do, what the weather is, and where they're flying to.

    As a counterpoint, I think there's a strong current of anti-you do you, especially on Twitter. On Twitter I see the political divisions break down in a fractal-like pattern where the people you agree with 98% must eventually be ostracized due to the last 2%. Not to mention that Twitter rewards absolutist takes and thus perpetually spins more and more extremist positions leaving behind all moderation and common sense.


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    #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    I think "you do you" is appropriate when it comes to personal lifestyle choices or personal values. I think it's completely inappropriate when it comes to determining fact and applying logic.
    Agreed, and this is also what makes it so tricky. It absolutely has a place. I remember being in China for a project and was staying with a family. We were out on the town for 1 hour, and despite the fact that their kid was completely fine, they received parenting advice 3 times from 3 different people (things like "your kid shouldn't wear that kind of diaper, XYZ", or "you should really feed your kid in this way at the table, it is better for XYZ". On one hand, there's arguably some beauty to this as the country is such a communal country everyone thinks of themselves as the parent to every kid. I mean, I guess that's kind of nice, but at a certain point it's a lot of people with very little information on your child, your reasons for doing such, etc. and I wanted to tell people on their behalf to mind their own business!!

    We've probably all been on one side of this at life. I felt vindicated after getting a DNA test that shows people with my DNA do better in late evening hours than early AM hours, making an 8am wake up optimal. I've always naturally been drawn to edit later into the evening and sleep in later, yet many times, from people who knew nothing about my personal work ethic or working hours, assumed not being up at 6am like they were was a sign of laziness. A healthy dose of "I don't know what I don't know, don't know you or the details of how you arrived where you did, and it's none of my business - you do you" is much needed and welcome. It's a good alternative to overly rigid ways of thinking, projecting what works for you onto others, and overbearing group conformity.

    But then we run into a sort of loophole... how do we determine what is a personal lifestyle choice is or a personal value? In another thread, someone shared a story of a COVID wedding they went to where people could choose a bracelet based on their comfort level - you might be color coded then for if you are ok only with 6 feet, or with hugs. Or mask, no mask. Whether or not anyone realized it... this is the epitome of post-modern relativism in practical action. It is "you do you" culture. Of course, on any factual premise of COVID each individual's action affects the whole so taking a "you do you" approach doesn't work in a pragmatic sense. It's not as if the group was saying "we don't believe in COVID" or "we do believe in COVID". This would be a truth statement which may or may not prove true, which some people would agree or disagree with. Rather it reflects a sort of a relativistic truth statement, more akin to "COVID is sort of a choose your own adventure" and "we can have it both ways".

    But I highly doubt many people there could articulate what post modern philosophy is, and specify what behaviors traced back to relativistic thought, etc. They're doing what most people do, which is going with the "you do you" flow. It's why I referred to it "you do you culture" - while it is true, I don't think it's as if millions of people suddenly knowing chose to adopt a postmodern philosophy knowing full well what it is, they just sort of have fallen into it because it feels "chill". It's become a culture movement more than it has been a conscious adoption of philosophy.

    The reality is I'm pretty sure most of the people engaging in this are genuinely wonderful people who deeply believe they are doing the right thing, loving others and the world, and acting in a way that aligns with what they believe is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    As a counterpoint, I think there's a strong current of anti-you do you, especially on Twitter. On Twitter I see the political divisions break down in a fractal-like pattern where the people you agree with 98% must eventually be ostracized due to the last 2%.
    I've been thinking about this, and I think it's sort of a full circle paradox. "You do you" and what you're referencing on Twitter ("Cancel Culture") look like two opposite ends of the extreme, but I think they're two sides to the same coin. In "You Do You" you essentially are selectively cancelling a person - you ban another person's thoughts by saying "sure, according to you, but who are you to try and claim any sort of truth - that's just your personal opinion, and I've done my research, you do you". You essentially ostracize (cancel) a person's ability to contribute and put a fence around them. As combat said, in "relativism/postmodernism/you do you culture", the only absolute is that there are no absolutes. To violate that "absolute or relativism" is seen as the opposite of love/tolerance. So if a person doesn't play nice by being cancelled in part, and says "actually, I don't think it can go both ways, one of us here isn't right" someone simply cancels them in whole.

    On the other hand, you have people who are very black and white, and full sale ostracize a person for anything they find outrageous that doesn't conform to their personal absolute. They are the truth-mongers who see the world in two shades and believe themselves the authority of everything.

    It seems in actuality we are steering towards a culture that, despite claiming relativism on the surface, shares a common value of cancelling anyone who violates what they see as an absolute (whether its "there are no absolutes" or "everything is an absolute"). On top of all that, most people aren't very consistent at all. I've seen people who seem wholesale all in on "you do you" culture, but then are some of the most intensely judgmental cancel culture happy people I've seen.

    Turns out being sort of centered and gray is a narrow road. You quickly veer off into relativism or absolutism, and standing in the tension is something I am not even sure most people could do. Maybe McBob is spot on and the best option is to sort of get to good enough, check out, and develop your own clique in order to live in peace. Though it seems as the world shrinks, that's becoming less and loss possible.


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